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Topic: Baccarat Sections and Turning Points  (Read 888 times)

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Offline alrelax

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Baccarat Sections and Turning Points
« on: February 10, 2017, 11:45:03 AM »
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  • Played a shoe last night.  Great shoe.  Everyone lost their buy-ins and repeated buy-ins except myself and one other.  Most baccarat players these days do not understand the huge importance of 'Sections' and 'Turning Points' probably two of the most important and paramount items in evaluating Bet-Selection and wagering in baccarat.

    Sections and Turning Points are vital to make money in the game as well as a player's 'Plateaus' and understanding what those are and of course, your plateaus.  (I had some sketches and info posted on the latter but after 90 something views and not one comment, I choose to pull it down and file it)  There is great money to be made in this game with some basic understanding of what really happens at the tables, not what should happen or what you think will happen but--what is happening in the 'sections' and simply being able to identify the 'turning points'.

    Just like last night.  A couple 'young guns'.  Talking and reasoning out loud.  'Naturals all cut', 'the next hand after every time the hand won with a 6 or a 7 continued on the same side', 'Never more than 3 in a row', so and so and so.  They are absolutely correct for the 'SECTION' of the shoe they are referring to.  Except they do not know and have no idea what a 'TURNING POINT' is and when it comes about and how they can recognize it, etc.  Then they win the wagers using the verbal reasoning as they said (as I stated in the previous sentence) and then in the new 'SECTION' the "TURNING POINT' came and every wager they placed lost. 

    Hopefully this doesn't offend people reading.  But in blatant reality, there is very little continuance of much more then 5-9 horizontal squares across than throughout large sections of shoes.  As well, recognition is a must and getting rid of that, 'continual wagering on a pattern/trend until it comes or stops and a tad bit more in case it comes back' type of wagering will kill you, almost every single time!

    As attached:


    Offline alrelax

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    Re: Baccarat Sections and Turning Points
    « Reply #1 on: February 11, 2017, 09:23:13 AM »
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  • So, I received a few PM's and a phone call.  I will explain the card I blew up and posted from the other night.

    As an experienced long time baccarat player, IMO there is no greater knowledge one can have to be conscious of and alert to Sections/Turning Point & Plateaus.  (I won't go into Plateaus again because as I previously posted, after taking time and trouble to develop some sketches and charts, there was absolutely no interest and no response, so I will leave that end of it out)  I know, deep in my heart, that without this information-most every player out there will have no conscious bearing relationship of the most ideal and pertinent times to wager in the shoe. And, if you think that there is none, you are truly doing yourself a huge injustice.   

    Sections:  Every shoe has what I label as 'Sections'.  Sections are the show divided into about 3 or 4 physical horizontal sections of space.  The shoe I posted attached, is divided into 3 sections, A-B & C.  Unless the shoe is a phenomenon and those do happen ever 'blue-moon' such as a complete shoe of 'chop-chop/alternating B-P-B-P-B-P the entire shoe or 'doubles' the entire shoe, there will be some kind of sections. 

    There is so much folklore, legendary tales and experienced players at the multitude of baccarat tables around the country or around the world.  There are no shortages of expert opinions and definitive reasoning's at most tables.  However, I revert back to an old saying of mine, "It is what it is".  Personally I have lost a ton of money 'following' others and on the other hand, won a ton of money as well.  The part that irks me beyond belief is when I actually do follow another player against my own thoughts, beliefs and factual knowledge of the game.  That is the one that hurts.  You say, "well don't follow anyone then".  Not that easy, especially for a camaraderie player like myself that truly can make huge amounts that I would not have realized sitting there starring at the chip rack with my head down in my hands. 

    So, Sections.  There are numerous variable, but the way I see and define sections is the comparisons of 5-9 (sometimes more) horizontal squares of space on the card or board.  I am not predicting nor am I guessing.  I am merely identifying what has happened and what is happening.  Huge difference.  So maybe a keynote here is:  You are looking to go with it or against it, meaning--what the shoe is producing.  The past is not a predictor of what will happen or not happen in baccarat.  As well, the future hands starting with the very next one out of the shoe, is not dependent upon anything that has happened whatsoever.  Yes, that is solid.  But, most experienced and long time players know that there are events that are waiting, do happen and will happen.  Three things happen in a shoe as far as I am concerned.  Strong, Weak and Neutral.  There is also three things that happen in a shoe with the prevailing hands, total value points.  Strong, Weak and Close as compared to the other side that lost.  There is also what I believe three shoes possibility plenty of times.  That is a period of shoes, back-to-back that will be winnable by you with clear and concise sections-turning points and bringing yourself to your highest plateaus and offering chances to reach higher ones.  A player needs to take all of what I said with the three '3's and mix them up and get those ingrained within your brain as second nature. 

    What I am attempting to get across here is comparison and realization.  Not prediction, guessing, fortune telling or wishful thinking.  There are only so many traits that happen in a shoe of baccarat.  'Chop-Chop, Doubles, 1's-2's & 3's, runs/streaks, ties, fortune 7's, pandas, cuts after a certain number', the list is long, etc., etc.  Great money can be won on wagering for any type of event to happen in baccarat.  There are reasons as to why those events happen and don't happen.  Most of the time it will boil down to a form of 'regression to the mean'.  It is real and it is there.  There are no instruction books and the one system or method that wins today will lose an equal or greater amount tomorrow without rhyme or reason.  Simply because there are no patterns and trends that will always prevail on a consistent basis, none, zero, zip, zilch and nadda.   


    Turning Point:  When you look at my attachment you will see the letters I marked 'T.P.' which are the turning points of the shoe.  I correlate those to the sections as you will note.  Take the first Section A.  There was 4 Bankers, 4 Players, 2 Bankers, 2 Players, 2 Bankers and then 2 Players.  That was Section A.  Then the was 6 chop-chop, 3 Bankers and then 8 chop-chop more.  The turning point was after the first chop within Section B.  Then after the chop-chop there was 2 Players followed by 5 Bankers and a Tie.  The turning point was after the end of the little Bankers run of 5.  Then you go into Section C.  There is one turning point within the section IMO. 

    Tuning Points are vital to identify as you go along.  Once you learn how to properly see it, you will realize your ability clearer to wager on the 'cut' and 'regression to the mean effects' that inevitably occur with or without your knowledge.  What I just said, is you will not have shoe after shoe after shoe of 60 Bankers and 15 Players, 4 shoes in a row.  You will not have shoe after shoe of 55 Players and 20 Bankers shoe after shoe after shoe.  You will not have shoes with 7 streak of Bankers and Players producing 6 to 9 repeating winning hands shoe after shoe after shoe.  And so on and so forth.  Revisit the info I laid out about the three '3's I mentioned above.  Strong-Weak-Neutral events, Strong-Weak-Close point values and 3 shoes winnable-above average consistency in presentment to you.

    I don't guess, I am not predicting.  If you think that, that is wrong.  I will give you an analogy here.  Fishing.  Go bait your hook and stand in a spot the fish do not frequent for whatever unknown reasons.  Rather than trying to get the fish to come to you or figure out those reasons why they won't come there, switch spots to where the fish do frequent and see what happens. 


    Offline alrelax

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    Re: Baccarat Sections and Turning Points
    « Reply #2 on: February 11, 2017, 10:49:31 AM »
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  • 2 Additional Cards:

    BTW, tests and samples don't prove anything in baccarat.  Nothing.  My test Vs. Yours or Theirs.  It  doesn't matter what anyone's test produced for wagering advantage at a table.  Long term results are fine for informational and research purposes, for casino play--does not mean anything--nothing! The results from those samples will not be repeated in any 'follow-able' pattern or trend or distribution whatsoever.  If you are looking for the magical holy-grail that you believe exists after a 'such and such' there is none, zero. All you do is fuel a scamster or spamsters wishes when you believe anything remotely close to that last sentence in the purchase of a book, manual, training or system, etc. 

    Let me correct myself a tad bit.  All the tests or sampling does in the long run, is prove that there is certainly 'regression to the mean' and 'equaling out' of sorts.  But once again, you can have 3 or 5 or 10 shoes in a casino with 35/36 Bankers/Players or lopsided like 45/24 Bankers/Players, etc.  You have to drum it into your head, the theory and the classroom research end of it with statics of hundreds of thousands or millions of shoes do nothing for live casino play.  Nothing. 


    Offline alrelax

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    Re: Baccarat Sections and Turning Points
    « Reply #3 on: February 13, 2017, 01:08:26 PM »
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  • Played two shoes yesterday.  Went with an employee of mine to give him a ride near one of the casinos and we went in to get a steak.  Had so many comp points which I never really use, so I burned up about 200 of them on a great meal and some drinks for him and myself.  Played this shoe posted and another one.  Very interesting....super strong point values holding true to what they usually produce.  4 distinct Sections.  Turning points that stood out and slapped me in the face.  The fantastic 1-2-3-2-1, a 3-2-1 all with strong naturals for both sides, like 15 or more 8's losing to 9's on the first 4 cards.  The first 3 ties were all 9-9 ties!  Banker walked away with a clear dominant shoe.  Here it is.

    Offline alrelax

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    Re: Baccarat Sections and Turning Points
    « Reply #4 on: February 14, 2017, 04:43:04 PM »
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  • Shoe that goes along with the other night.  Of course several got zonked real bad because they flat bet the banker and then went heavy on the regressions once or twice repeatedly.  Those that say how it always equals out are so far off as a whole.  The shoes I see do and then they don't and then there are those that come somewhere in the middle, etc.