I'd think that there are times to get some situations to last and other times to play those events to stop. We'll see this important topic within a couple of days.

as.

It's quite likely that whenever we sit at a bac table we find ourselves to gamble instead of carefully considering our opportunities.

Gambling = losing

Most of the times gambling means to ride a possible wave to last for long or forever or, worse, to get it to stop after a long negative sequence.

It's a proven fact that gambling rides in direct relationship of the betting rate, the more we gamble higher will be our 'gambling factor' leading us to a sure loss.

Unfortunately as humans we like to gamble way more whenever we're losing, not considering that every bet is a new bet.

More bets we're placing higher will be the probability to fall into the 'undetectable' world but this thing is true only whenever we're considering bets as single bets and not by 'ranges'.

It's like that sometimes we have to take the casino's hope, that is to bet the opposite side we have thought to wager or simply not to bet at all.

The only way casinos are losing serious money is whenever strong univocal situations happen (and it doesn't happen so often), thus the only way we players might win serious money is by wagering the opposite more likely counterpart or to bet the univocal situations up to a point. Or, better yet, not to bet at all.

Practically speaking the winning process is a delicate evaluation of winning or losing streaks, knowing thay we can afford to let them to reach some values without risking a dime.

as.

as:
knowing thay we can afford to let them to reach some values without risking a dime.

Thanks KFB!

How to lose the composure in 7 hands

Oh well, I thought to be immune to the worst scenarios but I can't believe about this sequence spread in two shoes. All hands were consecutive losses. 

Hand #1  Bet on Banker (2-10) 8, Player shows (A-J) K

Hand #2 Bet on Player (Q-5) 3, Banker (2-Q) 7

Hand #3 Bet on Player (J-J) 8  Banker (J-10) 9

Hand #4 Bet on Banker (A-A) 8  Player (9-2) K. Quite funny it's a sort of repetition of hand #1

Hand #5 Bet on Banker (3-2) 5 Player (4-10) 7

Hand #6 Bet on Player (Q-8) Banker (A-8)  Ok, a classical hand in the 'right' moment of the night 

Hand #7 Bet on Player (2-J) 6 Banker (6-K) 3

Bad sequence? Not necessarily, think about those three 200:1 spots...

as.

A couple places I play at any side three-card 8/9 is a 200:1 payout.  $25.00 quarter is a $5,000.00 pay!

Also both sides, anyway naturals 8/9 (one side 8 and one side 9) is a payout of 50:1.

That's the 'beauty' of side bets: they do not come out often but rarely they show up so clustered that there's no shame to put a tiny bet on them.

as.

Setting up a system

In probability theory a well know concept is "The impossibility of a gambling system".

The principle of the impossibility of a gambling system is a concept in probability. It states that in a random sequence, the methodical selection of subsequences does not change the probability of specific elements. The first mathematical demonstration is attributed to Richard von Mises (who used the term collective rather than sequence).


Richard Von Mises is an old acquaintance on these pages, mainly as he postulated the strongest definition of randomness ever.

Here we want to consider in practical non academic terms whether a system is 'possible' at baccarat.

One.

It's intuitive to think that if no system works any other approach wouldn't. Providing sequences are random regardless of the method utilized.
In a nutshell, successful players of both categories rely upon 'non randomness' of the outcomes.

It's quite easy to see whether a system is good or destined to fail, it's more debatable to know if a 'no system' player will be ahead itlr.
Yet with no strict measuraments of the results (of course that must be replicable), we are talking about thin air.


Two.

Advantages of a possible system over other approaches

Poor emotional impact over the outcomes. If we have tested that a system will work itlr, no weird situations (e.g. see my post above) should affect the mechanical steps of the process, maybe by luring players to deviate from the procedure.


Disadvantages.

Above statement: Easier sayed than done.
Think about being in the strong negative field and to face patterns we don't bet and making huge winners the rest of the table.

After all, best players in the world are gamblers, maybe making educated guesses but remain gamblers.
That is it's best to win and being happy than winning in a kind of depressed mood.

Unfortunately it's less likely to be happy and winning than to be sad or in neutral mood and losing.

Three.

A system player is more adapted to the natural negative variance than any other player, mainly as he/she thinks the game as a long term succession not splitted into sessions, days or other very short term evaluations.
At the same token he/she generally considers in a more careful fashion the strong positive situations happening along the course of his/her action.


Four.

Technicality #1

A possible system works by a strict flat betting scheme.
If any shoe dealt would produce random successions the probability to win is 0.
Humans can't read randomness by any means, actually casinos hope their shoes to be randomly offered and somewhat hoping some shoes will produce strong deviations to be caught by players. So giving the perfect 'illusion' that the game could be beaten.

HE can only be beaten by a bet selection working at supposedly unrandom productions and not by progressions or human guesses, therefore most of our bets must be placed at EV+ spots otherwise we'll lose.

Five.

Technicality #2

Standard deviation values of our bets are the watchdog of randomness or possible unrandomness.

Say that after 10 sets of 1000 resolved (no ties) hands wagered our system had encountered a losing streak not greater than 8.
Expected probability teaches us that after 10.000 resolved hands wagered a greater than a 8 losing streak will come out on average nearly 19 times. But we got no one.

Is this a valuable finding to set up a system?
But more importantly, what are the best spots to risk our money at?

Six.

Technicality #3

Baccarat is not black jack where classes of cards orient the probability toward the house or the player so needing millions of simulations to know the 'estimated' (as many cards are burnt from the play) favourable or unfavourable math values.

Simplifying, a possible bac system capable to win after 10.000 resolved hands is a pretty good one.
If the system provides a strict flat betting scheme, the probability to be ahead by chance is very close to zero.

Seven.

Technicality #4

Collectives (result successions taken by infinite levels) getting sd values quite different to expected values applied to a random model and in consideration of the math probability of the possible outcomes are not real collectives. So unrandom shaped by definition. So fkng beatable.

Eight.

Technicality #5

Regardless of a bet selection capable to get the advantage of verified smaller sd values than expected, variance remains a strong enemy of every system or replicable approach, especially when adopting a flat betting scheme.

In order to reduce the variance's impact acute players tend to utilize three ploys:

a) waiting that a moderate-strong unwanted deviation will come out then betting huge;

b) progressively betting by a multilayered multistep scheme just on positive spots;

c) progressively betting by a multilayered multistep scheme after negative spots of any lenght came out (so a light negative spot constitutes the trigger).

Once we've verified our possible edge, the decision to take one of the three different approach is unimportant, maybe and providing a proper bankroll a mix of the three is best.

Remember that anytime we sit at a bac table we must adopt a kind of 'sky's the limit' approach, the only thing we can concede at casinos is their HE that counts nothing itlr.

as.

Hi as / thx for all your writings(especially this one).
There are many true statements and just a few of my favorites are posted below.

I like that your essays include real-time table experiences along with statistics, not ignoring either, and blending them appropriately. IMO there is room for both in a professional Bac players regime(or there better be room for both) if one wants to survive at the tables.

I will comment more this weekend as your truisms deserve a more detailed reply.

Not in any particular order of importance:

*It's intuitive to think that if no system works any other approach wouldn't. Providing sequences are random regardless of the method utilized.
In a nutshell, successful players of both categories rely upon 'non randomness' of the outcomes.

*A system player is more adapted to the natural negative variance than any other player, mainly as he/she thinks the game as a long term succession not splitted into sessions, days or other very short term evaluations.

*If any shoe dealt would produce random successions the probability to win is 0.
Humans can't read randomness by any means, actually casinos hope their shoes to be randomly offered and somewhat hoping some shoes will produce strong deviations to be caught by players. So giving the perfect 'illusion' that the game could be beaten.

*HE can only be beaten by a bet selection working at supposedly unrandom productions and not by progressions or human guesses, therefore most of our bets must be placed at EV+ spots otherwise we'll lose.

*Standard deviation values of our bets are the watchdog of randomness or possible unrandomness.

*If the system provides a strict flat betting scheme, the probability to be ahead by chance is very close to zero.

*Regardless of a bet selection capable to get the advantage of verified smaller sd values than expected, variance remains a strong enemy of every system or replicable approach, especially when adopting a flat betting scheme.

*Remember that anytime we sit at a bac table we must adopt a kind of 'sky's the limit' approach, the only thing we can concede at casinos is their HE that counts nothing itlr.


    IMO on this last one: Variance always swamps HE.


Good thread AsymBacGuy and I look forward to your future discussions on the above. I encourage others to jump in and offer their opinions/ questions as well.


Continued Success,

You are too kind with me, KFB! Thanks a lot!
I'm looking forward to hear from you more comments on that, thanks again.

Continuing the topic.

Nine.

Casinos get their (huge) baccarat profits by a very slow winning rate, step by step and the proof is that not infrequently many premises register one or a couple of losing months per year.
Math (HE) needs time to get its full power.

Similarly successful players collect the wins by the same slow rate, step by step.
Statistical procedures (but even math advantaged situations) need time to get their full power.

Time is paramount when gambling and it can't be restricted by human guesses or hopes.

Ten.

Systems tend to give the idea that they can win little by risking a lot, yet also casinos could risk a lot by potentially winning little.

Players duty is to get more symmetrical (or asymmetrically shifted to their side) the above assumption:

a) casinos confide about two different levels of 'certainty': HE (100% sure) and random productions (unsure).

b) players cannot do nothing about HE but they can be sure about the non random productions.

Everything eventually converges into the 'probability of success' (POS), that is the level of certainty to be winners itlr.

Casinos will have a 100% POS providing their productions are really random; since they are not, their POS can't be 100%.

Players know very well that itlr math related POS is 0 (so every system based on math is worthless), providing every production to be random.
Since this last parameter is not fulfilled, their POS varies with different levels of confidence.

Eleven.

Powerful 'systems' provide a very diluted betting scheme in relationship of actual outcomes as no matter the unrandomness of the production very few spots will get us a manageable and detectable edge over the house.
Actually the edge remains constant but the variance will be more 'controllable' thus privileging a lower bankroll employment.

The common denominator is the 'complexity' of considered patterns as there's no way to get 'more likely' complex events to be denied for long per every shoe dealt.

Maybe more likely complex events stay silent for one step or two, sometimes for three steps, then they invariably will come out.

Of course the texture of the actual shoe will help us to define the terms of intervention of such probability, sometimes 'enemy' patterns show up so rarely that the shoe is a 'sky's the limit' one.

A careful assessment of such different probabilities percentages constitute the basis of the 'progressive' betting made by a multilayered multilevel scheme.
We'll see tomorrow this topic.

as.

Hi all,

Asymbac in your Setting Up A System post #711 above you say:

"...
In order to reduce the variance's impact acute players tend to utilize three ploys:

a) waiting that a moderate-strong unwanted deviation will come out then betting huge;

b) progressively betting by a multilayered multistep scheme just on positive spots;

c) progressively betting by a multilayered multistep scheme after negative spots of any lenght came out (so a light negative spot constitutes the trigger).

Once we've verified our possible edge, the decision to take one of the three different approach is unimportant, maybe and providing a proper bankroll a mix of the three is best.
..."


a) waiting that a moderate-strong unwanted deviation will come out then betting huge;
    Can you give a specific example of this (and how you would typically wager that spot. e.g., One bet , 2-step neg pro,...etc, or do you do a longer neg pro (say 5-step neg pro),...etc. or None of the above?  other?



Q: Are you personally more likely to wager a slow neg pro in perceived EV+ spot or if you hit that first wager are u then more likely to do a pospro (i.e., Pressing that first hit) in the same or other EV+ spot(s) later in that shoe or following shoe(s)??


Thx in advance,

As you said in Post 706:

" The only way casinos are losing serious money is whenever strong univocal situations happen (and it doesn't happen so often), thus the only way we players might win serious money is by wagering the opposite more likely counterpart or to bet the univocal situations up to a point. Or, better yet, not to bet at all."

And..............when it's there..............whatever it might be............you pounce on it——-HARD.  To a point as I say ( and as you said as well, spot on, then back to one's Level and Plateau. 

Hi KFB!

a) waiting that a moderate-strong unwanted deviation will come out then betting huge;
    Can you give a specific example of this (and how you would typically wager that spot. e.g., One bet , 2-step neg pro,...etc, or do you do a longer neg pro (say 5-step neg pro),...etc. or None of the above?  other?

Practically it's the RTM effect applicated to certain subsuccessions when same bet selections are utilized.
We know that random and independent productions won't give any exploitable room to get this effect working, in the sense that no matter the point of the subsuccession we consider as 'trigger', future results will be conformed to expected (unbeatable) values.
Fortunately at baccarat things are quite different.

Thus after a moderate-strong deviation of a less likely event (unwanted event) and while wagering toward a more likely event, our EV won't be always negative but moving within different ranges in relationship of how unrandom was the production.
Very rarely it may happen that the actual shoe is so 'unrandomly' shuffled that the 'more likely world' remains just as a potentiality.
But itlr (say in every term beside very short terms) the number of RTM spots will overcome the remaining situations.

Hence, fictionally waiting toward such strong-moderate less likely events deviations before betting more often than not will erase and invert the HE.

It's obvious that the betting amount reflects the actual strategy we wish to employ at the table.
I'll be more specific in my next post.

Yet if a 'moderate' deviation is a good trigger to risk our money at, we must know that sometimes 'moderate' could shift into 'strong' instead of going toward the searched RTM effect.

So our possible edge won't be 'proportionally' placed in relationship of how many bets we have won or lost (for real or fictionally) previously as the actual level of unrandomness will make a primary role about results.

as.

QuoteAs you said in Post 706:

" The only way casinos are losing serious money is whenever strong univocal situations happen (and it doesn't happen so often), thus the only way we players might win serious money is by wagering the opposite more likely counterpart or to bet the univocal situations up to a point. Or, better yet, not to bet at all."

And..............when it's there..............whatever it might be............you pounce on it——-HARD.  To a point as I say ( and as you said as well, spot on, then back to one's Level and Plateau.

Yes, when things seem to go toward our favor, push and push and push.

Do not be afraid to push when winning but expect the worst when losing.

A large percentage of casinos' profits come from bad players attitude loving to bet huge as losers and being more prudent when winning.

as. 

Hi Asym/ thx for your reply to my Qs.

To clarify this following statement from your post above-- October 31, 2022, 11:21:59 PM:

"...Yet if a 'moderate' deviation is a good trigger to risk our money at, we must know that sometimes 'moderate' could shift into 'strong' instead of going toward the searched RTM effect..."

Are you saying this moderate deviation may instead of continuing with RTM may actually turn the other direction and become even stronger (meaning diverge away from TM) ?


Thx in advance,

Hi KFB!

Yep, exactly that!

as.