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[alrelax]

I have mentioned camaraderie in some of my writings.  Maybe, AsymB, Ted009 or Luengyeh can comment on this intangible and a bit difficult to define aspect of playing baccarat?  Any other members input or experiences is also encouraged of course. 
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From A Member:  Oh yeah, "comraderie"  how does that work?

From Me:  (I have written about it in the past, have to find where that was posted at.  But camaraderie to me, is when most or several others, if not the whole table is wagering together and we are hitting like a solid 3 or 5 out of 5.  Whereupon, you do know that many of the winning wagers you would not have even wagered on or you would have choose the opposite side or not seeing the event/pattern that other have.  Of course, say you are wagering $250.00 and others are wagering $500 or $700, whatever the numbers are.  Then they say, you have to match them, everyone the same, or anything of the likes.  We continue to win.  You know you would have grinded out 3 or 4 for say a considerable amount of bet or less than what you did. 

Not that they held you hostage or anything or you got talked into a wager, you just went along and developed a team.  It happens and happens often.  Some of my largest wins were actually due to something like this, rather than being alone, over in the corner, figuring something out.  Maybe a better term is, Riding The Wave, with everyone giving support and positive energy?  I do not know, I just label it camaraderie.  No, grouping up cannot change an outcome, but it can allow you to catch great opportunities and wager more than you would if you have a concrete wall up around yourself, IMO and experiences.) 

Many of us have called/labeled this, Overpowering The Shoe.

From a Member: The comraderie thing I'm not buying into for the most part.  I can see where it can be helpful if you are on the opposite of the winning bets and others are doing better.  Then it may be time to re-think, LOL.  But hopefully you are winning hands like the rest of the table and can raise some bets.  Some times it works.  Other times you just gave back some nice wins with a few large losses!  A lot of this depends on a personal game plan.  Are you a grinder OR are you looking to make the occasional big hit?

There are conservative ways to exploit a good shoe without too much risk.    The Charles Guetting is one way.  Trying an UAYW Fibonacci is another and has a lot more torque when you get those 8,9,10, 11 WIAR.

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From Alrelax:  I am not using it as a method or a planned scheduled trigger, for sake of defining the term camaraderie.  I am attempting to define and explain my largest wins and what causes those as well, downfalls of continual play, etc. 

Most noticeably, my largest and most sizable wins, have been with some type of camaraderie.  Call it team work, call it input from others at the bac table, call it a bunch of us following each other.  I call it camaraderie.  I specifically remember a shoe a few weeks ago at a $2,000.00 max table.  I was in the neighborhood of around $200.00 to $400.00 a hand for those hands that I was playing.  Another player whom I was not super acquainted with, only sporadically saw him in the past, pats me on the shoulder and says, it is time-lets pump it up-I feel it.  I was neutral and another player was losing and was extremely frustrated appearing.  The three of us at the table.  I was doing okay, ahead a little bit nothing to write home about. 

He goes in table max and I am like at $500.00 now, he says pump it up.  I put in a total of $1,800.00 and said I wanted to be just under him.  He pulls his bet down and pulls mine down.  The dealer is laughing, the floor manager laughs and walks away and says something to himself.  He tells me match his bet or he is not wagering.  I matched it.  We push them both in to our Banker spots.  Dealer flips a total of 0 for the Player and Banker has a 1.  Player pulls a 6 and I look at him and not that it would be his fault or anything, just we are not in the best standing with only 3 cards that could help us.  Banker pulls a 7. 

Yes, we won.  Not because of him.  Because of the cards.  But if he did not say something and team up with me, I would not have wagered the amount I did.  I did not do it because of the cards or the shoe, that time was strictly because of another person.  We overpowered the shoe in the reasoning that we bet the way we did. 

Most people I have seen over the years, past and present, will parlay and parlay and parlay, until they lose.  If not in a row, hand after hand, they will do it with stacks of chips set aside from previous wins and do it repetitively.  They get wiped out almost every time.  It is short lived and a burst within themselves of motivation.  Very little to do with other people at the table.

Every hand does not have to match another?s bet amount.  I just used that as one example.  There is power amongst people and I have witnessed it over the years.  It does not occur every shoe with every group of people playing.  It cannot be mechanicalized.

I wrote something about some of the best games if bac I ever played or lets say most memorable.  There is one that sticks out in my mind to this very day about the group of people at the big tables at Caesar's in Atlantic City when they had the original high limit room with the 2 big 14 player seats and the 3 dealers with the 2-floor people at each end of the tables.  How the one shoe took about 4 hours to play out and how just about everyone won hundreds of thousands of dollars on that one shoe.  That is camaraderie at least in my book it is.     

[alrelax]

Here is the post from 2016:

4 Of My Most Boss Games of Baccarat with Details:

NOTE: In my beginning years of gambling, I would definitely be inclined only to remember the highest winning shoes as memorable shoes/trips. As time passes, it is more about uniqueness and 'stand-out-ability' with the most memorable. With that said, here are mine anyways:


3 from the 90's and 1 from 2011.

The last one first. 2011 @ The Bellagio, very late afternoon waiting on the VIP Super bowl Party they have in their ballroom for invited guests. Played one shoe of Midi Bac and won about $50k. Then we went to the unintelligent behind boring SB party in the ballroom to watch 2 teams I couldn't give 2-hoots about, Steelers and Packers. The following two shoes at that same Bac table were killer shoes for the players and I remember to this day Johnny F. and the dealer as well, both telling me how 2 players each took them for $200k and $300k respectively. I have said for a long time that good shoes comes in groups of 3, but I got caught up in the events, and lord I hate doing that, I am a gambler and really don't go for the shows and events, sure I go to some of them but not as the primary reason for going to Vegas, I still regret not staying at that table. I have played numerous times where I arrived after all the great shoes were done or I left early, etc. But never played 1 of three great easy shoes where it was possible to rake in hundreds of thousands.

The next 3 are the happy ones.

The 80's and 90's to me were more fun in Atlantic City because of the type of players. Vegas had more California and west coast players as the majority and they tend to be much quieter and love to subscribe to that 'heads in the hands' syndrome at the tables. On the other hand, before 9/11 and of course before 2008 economy crash, Atlantic City had the boisterous, loud, continuous high-fiving/backslapping players that egged on the camaraderie beyond belief. Generally, the quieter times and less boisterous ones in Atlantic City was about what Vegas was generally like the majority of the times.

First time playing at Bally's Grand after the Steve Wynn days of his first casino owned by himself, The Golden Nugget. I was playing the carnival game '3-Handed Blackjack' on the main floor where you would keep your first card for the following two hands. I was up about $25k to $30k or so and my x-wife's friend grabs me by the arm and yanks me away. She brings me to the big baccarat table in the HL pit there. This is the time when there was no Midi or Macau style, only 14 seat/3 dealer big tables or mini bac on the main floor. I sit down next to her and her two sisters and there other friends all taking up one side of the table. I begin winning and whatever I touched won. The whole table, full with 14 players, begins to follow. 1/2 Asians and 1/2 White people. Most know each other and most of the dealers are all on first name basis with almost everyone. Well over $100k up after a shoe or two. We ripped up cards, threw cards out onto the main casino floor, all kinds of 'normal' bac stuff that unless you played during those times, you really have no idea. The dealers back then rarely made mistakes if ever. All shoes were hand shuffled between games taking at least 20-25 mins between shoes. Then we all ran to the main floor mini table and the floor people knew us and we were allowed to wager $100/$10k or whatever our max limit was in the HL at the big table. The regular players at mini were only allowed $25/$2,500. We would all group up and let 2 or 3 players squeeze in and hand that player from the big table our wagers for the hand. It was so loud and complex with the wagers, at least 2 if not 3 floor people would come running over when we all hit the couple of mini tables during the big table shuffles. It was fun. Once in awhile one of us would reach over and grab a card from the dealer before they turned it and we would squeeze it. The floor people would shake their heads, as then the cards would have to be changed after the shoe of course. But no one got upset, we were the players, the customers, unlike today's atmosphere. When the whole side was on one side and it lost and the results looked 'not so obvious' some of the dealers would do the wrong pay-out so quick if the floor people were not watching, you could never catch it. Like if the Players had a 6 for a 3rd card and the Banker was sitting with 6 for the first two cards, say the Banker drew a seven or a 9, the dealer would glimpse at the floor and if they were not making eye contact, a lighting fast payout to the Banker would happen. It was just the way it was occasionally and no one ever got caught. This is before the pits had the regular lounges and food, the Butlers from the private floor were called if we requested and they would go to the boardwalk and bring back 6 or 10 boxes of pizza pies and calzones from a small place on the boardwalk just north of the Grand there. But the camaraderie and the people made the scene by far and there was never a lack of it. I played here numerous times when it was Steve Wynn's joint, The Golden Nugget and after it went to Bally's I left there for the Trop/Tropicana, The Claridge, The Taj, and Caesar's to play bac. After that night I was a regular playing back at The Grand most weekends.

The next one was at The Tropicana in Atlantic City also. This is when the HL was all the way in the back of the place, I believe it would have been the west end of the casino. It was like an alcove set-up. The one big bac table they had was in the rear corner of the room. It was a full table one night. As quite frequently one side (7) players would wind up wagering the opposite side wager's than the other end of the table. A massive run came and the guy next to me had the shoe to my left (I would get the shoe next to deal). After about 3 or 4 hands he is way over confident as most of us were back then when the shoe traveled around the table. He was standing up and motioning for everyone to wager Banker. Like a Crazy Eddie (New Jersey/NYC electronic store chain-very infamous famous) commercial, exactly, the guy was actually yelling and screaming for everyone to get on the Banker. His arms waving widely, egging each and everyone to wager Banker, really getting into it. Real old school bac action and fun. (for those of you who have no idea who Crazy Eddie was, Google him and read)

The guy makes a couple or a few more Bankers, we are all wagering Pumpkins/Orange and up I think. Most of us are wagering up $5k to $10k a hand. I think there was only two hold out other players wagering on Players at this time. One was to the guy's left in seat 1 and the Banker was in seat 2 and I was in seat 3. The guy in seat 1 returns a Natural 8. The guy quickly looks at his two cards and they are both pip 4 liners. I stuck my head over and he did not see if they were 10's or not and there was another couple of players that jumped up and ran over to his back as well. The guy that retuned the players natural is all smiles and shrugging his shoulders, I can still see it clearly to this very day. The guy with the bank breaks out singing the old "Stealers Wheel" song, 'Stuck in the Middle With You'. Clearly and loudly breaks out in perfect harmony, "Clowns to the left of me and jokers to the right....I don't know why I came here tonight....I got the feeling something ain't right.....Clowns to the left of me and jokers to the right...Stuck in the middle with you". The guy slams down a pip 10 card. After a good 20 seconds or more, the guy breaks back out "You're proud that you're a self made man, and your friends they all come crawlin, slap you on the back and they say"...... he looks over at the guy with the Natural 8 and in a long drawn out verse, says "nine" and slams down the 9.

The guy with the shoe continues, makes a few more bankers, probably up to around 9 or 10 by now. Gets up even a few more, probably around 15 or so. Everyone is on the Banker now of course. (LOL, these days most would be playing for the inevitable cut missing it all, LOL!) The guy's with his wife who is now standing behind him, we are all up easily well over $100k, house down well over 1 million, suits everywhere, hosts, HL manager, casino manager, others, security hanging around, etc., the guy and his wife both break out singing "That's the Way I Like It" by KC and the Sunshine Band. Perfect lyrics perfect tone! They both keep it up until he is done with his banker run, I think it was just under 20 or maybe 20 with the ties.

Runner up 4th, almost put it as third but the others beat it out. I think of this one all the time. At Caesar's in Atlantic City also. Mid 90's. Asian/Chinese New Year. Popped in Caesar's from another property there in AC. The HL was pretty packed. Seemed all the people were pretty much their own crowd. In the original high limit room, not the later side step up area with the Asian games. This was the big tables, smack in the middle of the room. Most all looked Filipino ethnicity out of the Asian that were seated. They just started a shoe and I grab the one seat that was open. I learned that they were pretty much winning and following their one 'leader' of sorts. Everyone was on the same side and I mean everyone, every time. They would wager and then sing a song, I had no idea what they heck it was. Almost every hand every one was winning. The 'leader' would wager first, every one followed. They would even switch sides after wagering before the cards came out and of course, they were right. The shoe took a phenomenal 4 to 5 hours I remember, The house lost millions that day. Another great game that I remember.

Those are the shoes and trips I will never forget, my top four. There were plenty of other great ones, but those are in my fore-front when I think about the past.

[Jimske]

I have mentioned camaraderie in some of my writings.  Maybe, AsymB, Ted009 or Luengyeh can comment on this intangible and a bit difficult to define aspect of playing baccarat?  Any other members input or experiences is also encouraged of course. 

Anecdotes deleted. 

Yeah, maybe some of these high rollers you mention who bet thousands per hand and have also lost thousands or hundreds of thousands will chime in? 

Fact is majority of people who are regular players and readers of this forum are never in these situations.  Mainly because their fellow participants are unknown to them and most are playing their own game or are following one or two players on the table that they THINK know what's going on.  So this may be great for all the high rollers.  Majority of tables are for lower limit players and none of this is going on.

Sure, you get on a table once in a while and it's dumping money so you get your fair share.  Once in a while.  Most times high or low limit you see people struggling to make a profit. 

Come down to Earth, Al.

[alrelax]

When it is there or the possibility of being there, it is there. 

I did not say, all the time or meant to imply that in any way.

But to me, there are forms of it continually happening almost every session, when the players are not stuck with their heads down in their hands and playing that proverbial, their own game. 

I have seen it frequently on $10/$1,000, $25/2,000 and $25-$50/$5,000 tables as well, not just the $100/$10,000 tables with players wagering thousands a hand. 

Maybe a better way to put it is, that I have seen camaraderie allow players to easily take the casino for a lot more than they would have done on their own, head down, not team play, no you risk it and I will too, type of play.  No matter if that involves a few thousand or tens of thousands of win money, regardless of the buy in or table limits.

[Lungyeh]

By and large I like a quiet game in the past. These days I find it better to move around and look for tables with shoes playing out to my particular liking and idiosyncrasies. Which means moving arund in the main casino area of lower bets.

I do see the point that there is camaraderie especially in a ?hot? shoe of strong trends. It happens. And the fun of the group in cheering each other on and caling for 3 sides (6,7 or or a picture card. The negative point is the long wait in between hands when the casino is losing and making payments. So unless I am part of the camaraderie at the start and winning from the early stages, I don?t normally join in halfway. But yes it can multiply the casino losses and the group must be quick to move on when the trend changes. That said, from what I see it only happens when there is a strong trend. Have not seen camaraderie in a non trending random shoe for those who do not believe in trends.

[Jimske]

I agree with Lungyeh for the most part. But you're right Al.  Something to be aware of.  Lots of times we hit a good shoe and we don't exploit maybe because we are not paying attention, or are just getting back some losses, etc. and we should be more aware when it occurs.  But . . it can occur when we are all alone on the table or even the only one winning.  Not necessarily has much to do with other players or comraderie.

I recall a day when I lost like 9 or 10 hands in a row.  Was so disgusted I got up and sat down another table and then won 12 IAR!!!!  Was so flustered I let it go by without thinking to do more than get the losses back!!! LMAO.

[Jimske]

Oh, yeah one thing I didn't say kind of goes along with Lungyeh comment.  I really don't like a lot of hoopla on the table, squeezing cards, taking a long time.  I want to get through a shoe in 45 minutes to an hour.  I also have no problem playing alone.

The comraderie thing can be a distraction.  Yeah, ya feel foolish when others are winning and you're the only loser.  That happens on occasion.  The opposite also happens!  All of a sudden other players are following you, waiting for you to bet before they bet.  I've been on tables where I bet late and cause everyone else to take down there bet! 

I don't think it's a good idea to start following other players.  Maybe once or twice.  Bad advice IMO.

[AsymBacGuy]

That said, from what I see it only happens when there is a strong trend. Have not seen camaraderie in a non trending random shoe for those who do not believe in trends.

I agree.
Mostly bets are concentrated when a kind of strong VISUAL trend is going to show up, so camaraderie seem to be an effect not a cause.

Sayed that, sometimes just one player could be the target to follow or to play "against", the main example is whenever an idio.t is increasing the bets trying to get a single winning hand after an endless streak.
Other times a smiling guy reach your table starting to bet whimsically then winning every hand, so why not  to follow him at least for one hand?

Surely most of the times whenever a player is quitting the table as strong winner is because almost or all the table had won.
Actually when I want to play higher, besides than following my plan I try to observe the other players as they might be an additional indicator of my bet selection.
Any action, made either objectively or subjectively (or both), will follow the common math expectancy.
Thus we could set up an "infinite" number of different random walks and you know that to get 2 WIAR you need to win one hand.
Sometimes objective and subjective situational factors will add up, no matter how smart are the players involved at a given table or how smart is our strategy.

as.

[alrelax]

Jimske, AsymB & Lungyeh all make points, good points.  We all have unique experience, bank rolls and ideas/goals of course.

People misunderstand and think I assume playing camaraderie is an accurate method, it is not (NOT).  The same as the widely wrote about wagering the bet to catch all the streaks and chops but not the doubles, etc., or anyone of numerous other mechanical wagers in the attempt to catch the majority.

However, that is not what i was after here.   I think it is more of a mixture of 'Understanding Real World Results and Understanding of Baccarat, mixed together and as well, the setting aside of that when and if, the time is right.  Do not ask what defines the time as right, because there is a different explanation for each one of us.  But, what Jimske said, (Lots of times we hit a good shoe and we don't exploit maybe because....................) and I chopped it off there, because that is where it really does end for each of us, the rest is how we each view the game and winning or losing, seriously.

And, those good shoes come without rhyme, reasoning, warning, fulfilling our key triggers, etc., etc., etc.  Does not matter how they come, they do and they will.  Sometimes putting aside everything and anything you normally do, with or without coinciding with another person or two or three or four, can overpower the shoe as I said elsewhere. 

Overpowering the shoe meaning, you are not being defeated or winning by having the shoe conform to your desires.  Rather, you are wagering with the shoe and you set aside most, if not all of your believes, and you increase your wagers by numerous times and most of them are winning and winning large. 

If you are a grinder, meaning you play for 3 or 4 or 5 units win and stop loss, you will never understand, side with me or probably engage in this type of bac action.  And this type of action and win can develop at a $10/$1,000 table on the main floor, or a $100/$10,000 table in the high limit rooms or larger limits. 

But if you adhere to a strict schedule of wagering, you will not agree or understand the power that what I just said will work and how you can win $10,000.00 on a $500.00 buy in or $20,000.00 on a $2,000.00 buy in when the time is right.  Likewise, you can lose it as well, of course.  But I do know, if I wager a continuous flat bet to win 3 to 5 units with a 5 unit stop loss, I will be in the hole attempting to continually recover my losses without having the ability to maintain a bank roll, continuous buy ins, as well as having the ability to have those larger wins be used for savings, purchases and non casino related bank roll replenishing, buy ins and the like.