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I would like to see if anyone can test the following?

Set up 8 decks of cards the exact same way/order, and run them out for a Baccarat shoe.

Cut the decks at different places.

Run the test numerous times, like 10 times with 10 different cut points but the same order each time and see what happens????

Can anyone do this?

This is when the dynamics of the shuffle and the cut blow your mind.

What?  No one can put this example on a computer test and see what happens??  Thought it wouldn't be that hard to set it up and check??  IDK.

What do you mean by same order?

1 to 416 order of cards to be the same prior to cuts? The cuts have to be random?  That creates a random starting point?

Is this right?

Does anyone know after a cut, do dealer burn any cards? If so, how many?

I wanted them shuffled in one order, any order as if a casino was going to deal one shoe of baccarat comprised of 8 decks. 

Maintain that same order exactly but with a different cut card position each time.

Say 10 times.

Record the results of each shoe.

That's all.

Here,  I want you to check the logic for the 3rd card.
If its correct, let me know how many more you want and what format.

It may be more useful to display them as B/P patterns.
Also need to take "burnt cards" into consideration.

Burned cards have been taken into consideration.

I just need someone to check the 3 card rules. If I have them right.

I had a quick scan through there all seem correct.

Yes, I looked at most and they are correct.

Ok. TY.

I will run and produce the out put of P, B & T.

I will name the file based on cut's.

Thank you very much Azim, the results are simply amazing. It seem that the cut point didn't really change the overall patterns that much merely just displacing them.

The cut will either displace if it strikes precisely or it more likely will create a new shoe.   If it creates a new shoe (new outcomes) those possibilities are large in number, right?

So many think on here and elsewhere that auto shufflers set-up the cards to be in the casinos favor.  Maybe a tad bit more at blackjack they benefit the house, complicating the counting (estimation) of what is left in a shoe to favor the player, however---in baccarat, although I would prefer a hand shuffle, IMO, there is no way a casino can set up the cards in any order whatsoever to favor the casino.  Even if they did, a random cut will circumvent any order from taking place as planned. That is what I am getting at. 

I am sorry, something is misplaced somehow, I simply cannot imagine almost the same patterns with different cuts.  I have taken 8 decks of cards, washed and shuffled, and written down the results.  I have never seen in my tests or decades of playing at casinos, same-repeating patterns/trends/results shoe after shoe---even with auto shufflers.  I have seen some, and I mean a few things trending from shoe to shoe, like one side or the other after ties or naturals or starting a shoe with strong bankers and then strong players or visa versa.  I have never seen the high majority of the winning decisions clump themselves so close and repeat shoe after shoe.  That would be a players dream if it did happen that way.

Again, something is not correct.

I will get 8 decks of cards and I will manually do this and record the results. 

if you want to recheck.

I have used the same shuffle as the one I produced the detailed results.

Follow 1 and see if you find any mistakes.

Sorry and all due respects, there is no way possible to get the same clusters/results as you did, although slightly displaced.  True, you might have on your 'dealing' but there has never been anything like this in live play.

I was taking this to the extreme to show, even with the same 'set-up'---'order' of the cards (which would never happen in a casino) it would be different.  You also probably didn't know, live casinos do a 'varying' cut off the rear of every deck when they are setting up the cards for the 14 cards in the rear of the cut card.  They actually do a first rear cut of approximately 1/2 deck or 30 cards (not counted out) and then count back 14 and place the cut card.  The remainder at times can go back in the back or in the front, etc.

But back to our test, even with the same order, cutting the cards just one time by a player with a random cut,  has to change the order of everything past the cut and then it will effect the group prior to the card because of the unknown amount of 5 or 6 card hands that happened prior to that section.

For me the only gain was I got the baccarat logic in place for testing.

If you think there is an error i can produce the detailed report and you can confirm it.

Yes I did use end cut at 10.

If you want re-cuts done without burns, just explain by example and i can re-do it for you.



Looks like nothing wrong.  I was using the right cards after the burn.

Here are the details to verify.

There has to be an error, sorry and nothing against you or your computer, but there has to be.

if you really want, I can create a loop and cut at all 415 positions?
Looks like either we have the 3 card rule wrong or we just picking the cuts at the right place for the results to be the same.

I am not a computer guy here for software and testing.  I am going to do the manual method, same as a casino dealing.  I have done random and compared multiple shoes in the past but never recorded it.  I have to do with my own eyes and knowing I did the same as a casino dealing anyways.  Thanks for your trouble, can't check a computer without doing it myself anyway.  The manual method will be more accurate for my purposes.

May be, I this is what you were expecting?

This is a new shuffle.

Sorry, it is impossible in my eyes/mind to produce the results the way you did.  Utterly impossible.

Give me a sample as to the way you want it?

If you going to do this manually, why not check this and see if it's wrong?

Well, if not, I tried. Maybe I did miss something.

Quote from: 21 Aces on October 03, 2016, 09:57:02 AM
The cut will either displace if it strikes precisely or it more likely will create a new shoe.   If it creates a new shoe (new outcomes) those possibilities are large in number, right?

Let's say the cut is at hand 25 of shoe 1.  Now you cut it at a different location.  It may cut exactly at the end of a hand for that exact shoe (let's say this cut is after hand 33). Now you have the exact same hands of the shoe, but just displaced by 8 hands.  If the cut does not strike and displace exactly this way (at the end of a hand of the first shoe), then you have an entirely new shoe.

The most likely outcome of additional cuts is NOT to strike precisely for a displacement of the original shoe, but to create a new shoe that results in entirely different outcomes.  The only ways a house can rig the shuffle is to rig the shuffling machine some way, add or remove cards they believe will result in less high payout bets or more difficult outcomes, or create a shoe by hand with certain progressions they select.

You are right. Well from what I can see, if the 3 card rule I have programmed is correct. I couldn't find anything wrong.

However, starting with a different shuffle, of course produces a different result set.

If someone has actually checked the details file. I have even logged the new location of cards with the shoe before and after cut and burn cards. The only possible error i can see is the 3 card rule. Which you both have confirmed is correct.

If all the above is correct, may be doing a loop to cut the cards at every single point, might make a difference somewhere.

Seriously, think about what you are saying????!!!

Same card order every shoe.  Different cut position.  All the results have to be different at complete random order of the outcome.  Cannot be set-up!

The results cannot be displaced, the cards before that were cut and put at the back might be the same--those will be the only section of cards the same.  BUT--then when the shoes starts the play, there is no way anything will still be in pre-set order including that one section that was cut and moved to the rear, because you do not know how many 5th and 6th cards had to be drawn, PERIOD.

I did not even go into about the burn cards or the variable 1/2 deck off the rear and changed around at times. 

Think about it.  You are saying everything will stay the same, that is impossible.

Look at the details for each and every cut.  If there is an error we can fix it.

However remember we have 416 cards, from 8 decks. With 128 cards having the value of 0. 
Which turns out to be 30% of the deck.

You will also have a burn card of whatever value the card represents in the game except for the face or ten card which would mean 10--burned.  The burn card cannot be the same every time as well.  We are cutting at random spots of the deck each time.

14 Cards not used in the rear. 

Instead of 14 from rear i have used 10.

I have detailed the log as follows.

The steps I have taken:

1) The original shuffle.
2) Produced a listing after the cut amount.
3) Deck after the first card and burn cards.

If the above is all correct from the log file. The only place an error can happen is in the 3rd card rule.

So yes you might be right. However, the log file does contain every hand played. So if someone really wants to check the details play by play to find out where the error is, if there is one.

Simple case:

Cut 1 First Hand:
Bank: 4 + 5 = 9
Player:  Picture + Picture = 0

Cut 2 Second Hand:
Bank: Ace + 3 + 4 = 8
Player:  3 + 3 = 6

Now take the exact same shoe with a different cut that is exactly 4 cards deeper than Cut 1
Cut 2 First Hand:
Bank: Ace + 3 + 4 = 8
Player:  3 + 3 = 6

Cut 2 Last Hand:
Bank: 4 + 5 = 9
Player:  Picture + Picture = 0

Alternatively, if you take the exact same shoe with a different cut that is NOT exactly 4 cards deeper than Cut 1 or that land exactly at the end of another hand in Cut 1, you arrive at a completely different progression (series of Bank vs. Player wins throughout).

I am not sure what you saying.

However, like I said. I have all the details in the log file. I couldn't find anything wrong.

If someone wants to go through the log file and point a mistake out. I am willing to change and fix the error.

The rest I see it to be correct. I could be wrong. However, unless someone points out and goes through the log, I can't fix something I don't know.

Most of you guys are so far off when it actually comes to shuffling.  I don't know about every jurisdiction but I do about Vegas and the major ones.  As far as a casino here and there in small markets, I don't know.  Anyway, I emailed to Nick Kallos (he owns a long time state licensed casino dealing school in Las Vegas 'Learn2deal.Com') and here is his reply to show you. 

I do know so many of the casinos do a quick breakdown and shuffle even when the cards come out of the auto-shuffler. 

QUESTION:

My question was when they are coming out of the auto-shuffler, as most casinos have moved to the auto-shuffler. Straight from the auto-shuffler to be cut or are they supposed to do a 'quick shuffle'?

ANSWER:

NORMALLY YES, THEY WILL SHUFFLE,IT IS UP TO THE CASINO,THEY WILL ALL HAVE DIFFRENT RULES,AND IN BIG BACC THERE WILL BE CASINOS THAT DO NOT HAVE SHUFFLERS..

Our shoes go straight from a Shuffle Master to a cut which may be done by a guest.  There is no manual shuffling done on the floor by dealers. I would take a Shuffle Master shuffle any day over a hand shuffled shoe or Shuffle Master shuffle plus hand shuffle as a dealer could manipulate the shuffle.  Likely? NO, but possible.

My posts on the shuffle and the impact of the cut are correct.  Maybe the way I am stating it is not clear enough.  The hands are either displaced with a cut aligned with current end of hands or a new shoe/ progressions are created.  The latter case is most likely as there are more points in a shoe mid-hand than at the end of a hand.

Regardless, the shoes can never be set up in the favor of a casino with a random card cut.  The cards behind the cut will be changed and the ones that was moved to the back (forward of the cut) will also be out of any order they came out of the shuffler in.  The decisions prior to getting to that section that was moved, has to be changed because of an unknown amount of 5th and 6th card draws before getting to that section of cards.

Just for giggles, I ask my daughter about this as she works with the NGC in Las Vegas on issues with slot machines for the company she is employed by on behalf on the casinos.  The NGC told her they do take and perform random audits on each casinos auto shufflers to assure that in fact, they are random and there are no patterns being produced.  They have a test to quickly surface any wrongdoing in that area.  Take that for what it is worth, I am merely relying information regarding this.

Quote from: alrelax on October 03, 2016, 09:09:33 PM
Regardless, the shoes can never be set up in the favor of a casino with a random card cut.  The cards behind the cut will be changed and the ones that was moved to the back (forward of the cut) will also be out of any order they came out of the shuffler in.  The decisions prior to getting to that section that was moved, has to be changed because of an unknown amount of 5th and 6th card draws before getting to that section of cards.

Just for giggles, I ask my daughter about this as she works with the NGC in Las Vegas on issues with slot machines for the company she is employed by on behalf on the casinos.  The NGC told her they do take and perform random audits on each casinos auto shufflers to assure that in fact, they are random and there are no patterns being produced.  They have a test to quickly surface any wrongdoing in that area.  Take that for what it is worth, I am merely relying information regarding this.

^This. 
Can rigging occur?  YES. 
Likely? VERY MUCH NO.
Has it occurred?  YES.
Risk to the casino in gaming violations if they are caught?  HIGH.


I made a thread a while back about how some players believe that shoes are actively rigged off floor by The Dark Wizard and his Black Riders.  I'll have to see whether I deleted it or not.

Gaming Gone Insane - Baccarat Edition
http://betselection.cc/baccarat-forum/gaming-gone-insane-baccarat-edition/msg47586/#msg47586


This should be most experienced players if they think about the dynamic of the shuffle and the cut on a great shoe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzP3kyAukHw

Don't know about your gaming jurisdiction but ours here in the Midwest has no problem with cutting twice if we ask and as well, we can request a quick shuffle when the cards come out of the auto shuffler, they have no problem to comply with our request if we ask.  Lots of the casino do in Vegas, quick shuffle, after the come out of the auto shuffler, not all thou.  If your does not and all the players got together and demanded it, I bet you there would be a quick change on the properties part.

What was the final verdict, do I have the 3rd card rule wrong?

Azim,

Could you please produce two more shoes with cut point exactly 4 decks apart?
My guess is the patterns would be very much different.

What's the point if the 3rd card rules are wrong?

The 3rd cards rules are correct.
It is the 3rd cards rules that plays the "catch up" games and once"synchronized" the rest of the patters would be identical.
So my guess is if two identical shoes having cut points as far apart(4 decks + burnt cards)as possible, the chance of catching up is next to nil, then the patterns would be much different.

Your ways of thinking are totally ridiculous!

Simply with a different position cut and a different burn card, every shoe cannot and never will hold the same darn patterns/results/decisions, no possible way!!!!

Sure, there might be a similar result here and there for a small section or even a half a shoe to almost resemble another, but no possible way the results could be the way they came out.  I was taking it to the extreme with the same set up of cards, which would never ever happen in a licensed casino, but my point is to prove like I said, a different cut and a burn card, the auto shuffler cannot set up a certain outcome. 

FML - I forgot about the burn cards.  It still could theoretically line up even with two different cuts and sets of burn cards.

Here we go. I have done 2 sets for the 2 sets I have used so far.
Detailed log is attached as well.

So we have two shoes with the same cut position with different order of cards out of the auto shuffler.  Doesn't prove anything, nothing. 

The whole point of this was to have a set-up the same and thus proving a different cut and possibly a different burn card would change the outcomes. 

Same amount of burn cards, same cut position with different results.

Let me ask you this way, Is this what you were expecting?


Shuffle 1).  Cut at 10->  20B's 13P's and 2T's.
Same Shuffle 1).  Cut at 20-> 14B's 19P's and 4T''s.
Same Shuffle 1).  Cut at 70-> 12B's 12P's and 6T''s.

This would be ideal for my purposes:

Shoe #1:  Cut card @ ____.  Burn Card ___ for total of  ____burned.

Results posted as the picture on a horizontal card as shown.

Any fashion, X=Players or P=Players, and 0=Bankers or B=Bankers.
Or, Red 0 is Bankers and Blue 0 is Players.   

thanks.

Yes Azim,
There are what I expected.
The patterns are much different from each others.
I rest my case.

The last test of the 2 shoes were in a different set-up order from what I understand.  The first tests were the same order.

Setting up the shoes in different orders does not accomplish anything.

Setting up the shoes in the same exact order, cutting in a different spot would prove that even if the cards were pre-set, that a random cut and a burn card will change any possible pre-set outcome from happening.  Which I know the latter would have to happen. 

I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

Let me start by saying I started with 8 decks. I did a shuffle.

For files without new the shuffles should be the same. I have produced a log file for that.

For files with new the shuffles should be the same. I have produced a log file for that too.

If the starting shuffle for files with new should all have the same and different for the files with out new., and files without the word new should have their own shuffle.

This is confusing to explain.

may be its me...


Without new the shuffle was 1 4 7.

With new the shuffle was 2 5 6.


I hope this made sense.

Quote from: alrelax on October 06, 2016, 06:27:58 PM
This would be ideal for my purposes:

Shoe #1:  Cut card @ ____.  Burn Card ___ for total of  ____burned.

Results posted as the picture on a horizontal card as shown.

Any fashion, X=Players or P=Players, and 0=Bankers or B=Bankers.
Or, Red 0 is Bankers and Blue 0 is Players.   

thanks.

This is easy..

BaccaractResult10.txt should have the shuffle and what the burned card was and play by play. Result10.txt should have the results only.

BaccaractResult11.txt should have the same shuffle as 10 and what the burned card was and play by play. Result11.txt should have the results only.


BaccaractResult50.txt should have the same shuffle as 10 and what the burned card was and play by play. Result50.txt should have the results only.


BaccaractResult50New.txt should have the it's own shuffle and what the burned card was and play by play. Result50New.txt should have the results only.

BaccaractResult60New.txt should have the it's own shuffle same as 60New and what the burned card was and play by play. Result60New.txt should have the results only.


BaccaractResult408.txt should have the it's own shuffle same as 50 and what the burned card was and play by play. Result408.txt should have the results only.


BaccaractResult408New.txt should have the it's own shuffle same as 50New and what the burned card was and play by play. Result408New.txt should have the results only.

Where I play after the cut there are a certain number of burn cards.  One is dealt face up and the rest face down.   Then the first hand is dealt.  The total number of burn cards is always the same.  I'll get that number...

Yes. I saw that last night too.

It's the value of the open card that gives the count of burnt cards.

Example:  Shuffle   cut,  open card value 5 burn cards count 5, for a total of 6:

Example:  Shuffle   cut,  open card value 7 burn cards count 7 for a total of 8:

That's how I have done my cut and burn.

One face up and ten face down burn cards.

Is it always 11 where you are?

if face up card is 6. burn facing down will be 6 for a total of 7. Is what I saw and have done.

if face up card is 10,J,Q,K. burn facing down will be 10 for a total of 11. Is what I saw and have done.

I think it is always the same.

If the interest is still there, I can do the same, burn 11 cards.

Do you want to give me spots where you want me to do the cuts?

I will run them against both the shuffles, that I have so far, so we comparing apples to apples.

I will have a few completed from doing manually today.  Will scan and post in the morning from my office computer, I don't have a scanner at my house.

If it is not too much trouble I would like to compare two shoes with cut points exactlyvone deck apart, and two shoes with cut points two decks apart.

I am waiting for Alrelax to post, he has done it manually and I will re-do it the same way .

Here is my first three shoes I did.  Manually.  8 decks of cards, proper burn and 14 in the rear behind the cut card.

Each shoe was arranged the exact same way.  The 3 burn cards were different values. And of course all three cuts were different.   

I guess I misunderstood what you were going to present.

I was expecting the full process as what I have in my log.

However I can change the results.file to reflect what you have. Will that work for you?

I can still produce the step by step process, for someone to check it out, if they so wish to.

Let me know, ok, let me know at what part of the deck do you want the cut?

Card 10, 20 , 30  whatever you decide. I will use 14 end instead of 10.

I don't have the time to manually worte down the card order or the hands played out as you presented.  I did this manually, with 8 decks of cards, no jokers, dealt the cards same as a casino, etc.  Cut the shoes at a different spot each time, somewhere around 30% to 70% into the shoe.  Drew a burn card and burned the value plus the burn card.  14 cards set behind the cut card in the rear of the shoe.  Same as a casino. 

The only thing I am looking for is if there would be any similarity when the cards (say they came out of the auto shuffler) in some magically set up order as to have a house advantage to the casino, if that order would be held. 

Once again, with a random cut and a burn card, there is no way for the casino to set up the cards.  Which would be a huge regulatory problem and possibly even a criminal charge.  Just so damn tired of hiring members open their mouths that casinos set up the shoes with a certain order of cards from the uto shuffler.  LOL.

I get it..  I will use the 2 shuffles I have so far.. 

I will do 7 sets for each shuffle and the cuts will be at 52, 104, 156, 208, 260, 312, 364 I will take the top card and burn the cards based on that value.

Will produce the result your way.

This is shuffle 1 and play by play log.

Numbers at the end is where the shuffle was.

Here are the results only.

Shuffle 1 and cuts are at the end.

Literally and physically impossible for you to get those results with a random cut and a different burn card.  You have the same exact result just displaced elsewhere, it is ludicrous.

You claim that, All I ask is even if you go play by play,  its the same..

So unless someone says play by play is wrong. The results are what you see.

How can you logically explain the shoes will eventually be the same when the beginning cards are different.  One 6 card draw instead of a 4 card draw will change everything behind it. 

Try it with one deck of cards, forget the 14 burn cards in the rear, cut it the value of the burn card and play it out, do it several times and you will see.  Do it with an actual deck of cards, not a computer.

Between the shuffle, cut, and burn cards most shoes should be completely different.  The cut has to strike in the exact right spot to displace and create the same shoe just displaced.  That is why when we see wild progressions they are so special.

Dang, are you cat still kickin this around, hey hey?

So, do you guys still believe that even after a random cut and a the burn card value is taken away from the front of the deck, you can still have the exact same pattern/results after the cut??  Just displaced further back in the shoe. 

I am almost embarrassed how supposedly knoweldabgle gamblers of some type here could even think that!  Just take say 1 deck and cut in a different spot and alter the beginning each time by taking our a few cards and play it out, write down the results and see yourself.

Point being, people run their mouths about a casino setting up a pre-shuffled shoe and it will be in their favor.  No way possible.  Read the industry technical magazine articles about the card companies procedure with RNG style type of technology in the robot shufflers that guarantee the decks are random and shuffled under security as well as gaming regulators, etc. 

I think you can have the exact same shoe displaced if the 2nd cut you place on the shoe is at the exact right spot and the burn cards add up to the exact number of hands to displace as well which (given 11 burn cards) could be a play of 6 cards and a play of 5 cards.

That is right--sure.  With the same amount of burn cards and the exact (EXACT) same cut place, the dhow would be the same.  That was not the case with the 8-10 test shoes he showed.

Quote from: 21 Aces on October 14, 2016, 05:37:46 PM
I think you can have the exact same shoe displaced if the 2nd cut you place on the shoe is at the exact right spot and the burn cards add up to the exact number of hands to displace as well which (given 11 burn cards) could be a play of 6 cards and a play of 5 cards.

The cut for shoe #2 can be anywhere and result in displacement if the cut and burn cards fall right in place such that the shoe is displaced.  Any other cut will cause a completely new shoe.

I am in the 'baccarat card shoe preparation is completely fair barring intentional rigging' camp.

Here is an industry informative article from a Casino Trade Journal from 2010 describing in detail how the card manufacturers do the 'pre-shuffles', FYI.  It is not a informal type of regime with no security or checks and balances, etc. 

Quote from: 21 Aces on October 03, 2016, 05:18:30 PM
Let's say the cut is at hand 25 of shoe 1.  Now you cut it at a different location.  It may cut exactly at the end of a hand for that exact shoe (let's say this cut is after hand 33). Now you have the exact same hands of the shoe, but just displaced by 8 hands.  If the cut does not strike and displace exactly this way (at the end of a hand of the first shoe), then you have an entirely new shoe.

The most likely outcome of additional cuts is NOT to strike precisely for a displacement of the original shoe, but to create a new shoe that results in entirely different outcomes.  The only ways a house can rig the shuffle is to rig the shuffling machine some way, add or remove cards they believe will result in less high payout bets or more difficult outcomes, or create a shoe by hand with certain progressions they select.

You are wrong, depending on where the cut circumvents the decks, till that point everything would be the same and since after the cut, the remaining cards are not being dealt nothing would change except the total of dealt hands.
If I'm not mistaken the cut reduces the playing cards from the 8 decks by 20% up to 50%.
Never all 6 or 8 decks are being dealt, thus it's not changing results but how many hands will be dealt.
On other hand, the shuffle rearranges the order of the cards, therefore results will be different due to shuffling and not because of the cut.
Think of it this way, all cards can produce all possible results (bankers,players,ties), therefore are "neutral" and the only thing which makes the difference is only their order.
The shuffler could be rigged but what's the point when the player can bet either side and the casino doesn't know which in advance?!
Exception could be if they observe by the cameras the betting action and control the device remotely in real time.
It's possible but not necessarily true.

@21Aces,


Higher payouts? In Baccarat?
The only higher payout is for the tie, is this what you meant?
Could you define your interpretation of harder sequence?
Do you know any specific sequence which is harder for any bet selection?


As long as everybody can bet anything the casino will take its cut from the total action regardless of which side will prevail.
That's the greatest success of the casino, to set players against each other in order to have sufficient wagers on all possible outcomes, that's how house percentages work, but just imagine what would happen if all players would bet continuously the same side...a real gamble not only for the players but the casinos too!