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[WorldBaccaratKing]

seriously, are you that stupid? how could a casino beat you in baccarat by setting the cards in their favor? you have no idea what a player is going to bet. absolutely stupid...i can see why most on here have never played or never played beyond 10 dollars a hand. do yourself a favor and keep it that way. unreal the stuff i read. but this is the internet and it is truly amazing what people can come up with. I have to go because bigfoot just ran across my porch and I been trying to catch em, excuse me.....

[AsymBacGuy]

The only real way an auto shuffler in a live casino can screw a customer in baccarat is to somehow rig the deck so there are no long Player or Banker runs.

Actually this would be an heavenly scenario for many players. ;-)

as. 

[Rolex-Watch]

Johno, if I may inquire, "Baccarat terminal" and "EPROM driven Angel technology"....what sort of Baccarat game is this, exactly?

If it is some sort of "computer driven" results, in that case, I, too, would be very skeptical.  I have a casino called Resorts World that is local to me, but I opt for the three hour drive to AC or CT to play in front of a live dealer rather than trust any money risked at those "Baccarat machines".

I am of the opinion that they can (and will) skew the results into their favor whenever they might feel the need to.  Not for me.

It is a normal Bacc game, dealer drawing, Angel kit, except you sit at terminal pressing button than placing chips.

Over a yr ago I mentioned to a few, the shoes just didn't "feel right", without putting my finger on it, it was like every shoe consisted of everything, 3 by 3, repeating 2's, sizeable chops, repeating 4's, 5's, it really felt pre-organised, obviously that is silly, but like I said it simply just didn't feel right and no matter how you played, you got hit by the most bizarre sequences, then when under pressure, got hammered by N9's on the other side.  So you let it go, then 6 months later I get introduced to some electronic programmer via a mat8 who came to the same observations as me.   

We had a long 5hr conversation who was explaining EPROMS, blue-light technology, seed values, recursiveness, how easy it is to do this and that, how to program them.  They are programmed, because they need to perform a complete card count.  We discussed pseudo random v's organised chaos v's true random, the guy was pretty cluely. 

Of course it all sounds silly, but when the strangeness becomes too frequent, it should make you wonder.  That's all I can say about the matter, no conclusion, but if you're uncomfortable about certain aspects, then bail.

While I don't understand Chinese, you get the drift and more importantly I am taking about a casino that I'm convinced rigged the tables against me back in 2004, averaging over $10k per day profit, this had to be brought to a halt, so that is what they did.  I'm in casinos usually 6 ~ 7 days per week, I hear conservations, staff bragging, letting things slip regarding what happened how they treated big players.  Such as holding somebody up in chair because he was so drunk while betting $250k per hand, laughing about how they cleaned him out of a few mill in the process     

You are dealing with people who are unscrupulous, have no soul, no morals, I've observed many a big Chinese big hitter simply just blank them, don't engage them, you don't make money being stupid or being played.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd8Bp4O1Yi8

[Rolex-Watch]

The Angel kit is programmed, it has to be in order to understand the hand drawing rules of the game.  Whether this is or can be manipulated, well you can decide.  Give me a hand shuffled game any day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veo_D_65FYs

[gr8player]

The "Angel kit is programmed".....that says it all for me, J.  I'd want no part of it, and wouldn't put 2 dollars into it.

But you're an ex "IT" man and know more about computers, and what they can or cannot do, than most of us.  So I'd trust your judgement on this affair, but, that said, reading these posts of yours in this thread speaks volumes.....you seem unsure.  And, to me, "unsure" is enough to warrant further investigation into the matter before risking any more money.

[Rolex-Watch]

Aren't you already part of it?  The Angle technology is being used world-wide

It is programmable simply because it needs to know the Baccarat card drawing rules, plus needs to count for shuffling purposes and read the cards.   The vid above proves what is possible, I'm not saying any thing is being deliberately manipulated, however it is possible for the casino to know in advance how a shoe will play out before it is dealt.

It pays to be aware, like I say, lose a few bets, increase bet size and bam, N9, N9, N9 all to the other side, just a co-incidence right, sure it was, it's only happened about 3 times in a week.  The locals paint a similar picture, it's like 15 years ago when nobody wanted to believer croupiers would or could place the ball. 

Nobody can ever prove anything, I passed comment elsewhere , about 6 months ago that things seems a little weird, kinda freaky when you can predict the next card in the middle of a hand, even if a dealer is involved.  It's just a combination of my experiences,  having a long conversation with a subject matter expert and talking to the locals.

This particular casino pulled out a lot of $10 minimum tables which used to be jammed packed, to replace them with a single 24 seat terminal, operated by one dealer.  Somebody said last night it is costing them about $6M per year, because nobody likes the terminal.  So given loss of revenue, the technology exists to orchestrate, how, I've no idea, but when money is involved, I wouldn't put anything past them, cos' that's the way it is.

Some guy said last night, if he could prove it, I would go to the Gov' and they would lose their license, I laughed at him, because the casino only employs 10000 locals and pays millions in taxes, nobody is losing anything.  The Crown has been fined numerous times over the years for shady practises, "wet bus ticket + wrist".

[gr8player]

Hey, I've seen that shoe before.....I believe Harrah's in AC uses it.  I played it once, not too long ago, either.  I noticed no difference as I recall.  But, that said, I knew nothing of "it being programmable" or "knowing the drawing rules" or "needing to count for shuffling purposes" or "reading the cards". 

I knew nothing of it.  I simply assumed that the dealer, still, was in total control of the action.  It now appears that may not be the case, and, if that proves true, I will do everything I can to avoid this "Angel" technology.

I can say this unequivocally:  The Borgata in AC still utilizes the standard shoes, and that's the bulk of my AC play, so all is well.

[alrelax]

Alrelax,

I looked up Buttersworth. Read some stuff about him against Indian reservation bingo halls. Unclear what his motivations were, can't say I'm a fan of wanting to arrest non Indians from gambling on reservations. Which is the same as me gambling in another country. It's not illegal. Plus Florida has dog racing tracks and Jai Alai gambling, the latter of which has been suspected of being fixed. I've gambled there before and don't like it. No mention of Buttersworth vs the gambling industry in his state, just against the Indians doing it.

I'm sure it's all about regulation and taxes. And less of a moral high ground. I saw a picture of Chief I cheat you's house by the ocean. Sure I agree, he doesn't need a 9million dollar jet. I imagine the management companies were rampant with corruption too. His 12million a year seems unnecessary as the Indian citizens, who are supposed to be benefiting from the revenue surely aren't getting anything except pocket change.

It is a fine example of what self regulation produces.

Personally, I'm not against reservations having full fledged casinos. But, if they are open to US citizens, on land fully encompassed by US soil, then a separate entity of NON Indians, a US gaming commission, should be regulating the action. Making sure all the games are fair. Cards, dice, slots etc.

BTW, the best course of action would be to allow full fledged gambling in Florida, thus cutting off the need for US citizens to go on a tax free reservation.

HBS

Yeah, Bob Butterworth was a piece of work, a tough Sherriff in a tougher terrain during the 'Miami Vice Days' of South Florida.  And Seminole was right in the midst of it all. 

About Butterworth and gaming in Florida.  He said something along the lines that if the tribe was 100% honest and had full integrity it would fare better for the casino patrons.  A quote the press had from Butterworth was, "If they had done it the way some other tribes are doing it now, I believe they could be making a lot of money honestly".  He also says, "The people going to the tables would know the games were honest....I would have much more of a comfort level."


You have to also remember the Chief of the tribe also put a $5,000.00 and a $10,000.00 reward bounty for anyone coming to him with information of any tribe member going to the press or law enforcement, etc. 

So read it anyway you want, I am NOT saying there was card setting, game rigging, etc.  What I am saying is 'INTEGRITY'.  Plain and simple. When there is integrity from within, everything changes including the type of players and the comfort level, sense and purpose of gaming.  Those doing it as a profession, recreation, hobby, sporadic outing, shot at a fortune jackpot or a contest or finally playing in a tournament---it would be a much different and trusted atmosphere.  The same as dealing with a chop-shop body shop to purchase a part versus going to a legitimate retail or wholesale outlet.

Integrity has to do with discretion and the meaning of being fair and just across the board.  In gaming, in business, law enforcement, etc.  Without integrity an entity has a huge empty void.

You know, rules and regulations, coupled with enforcement and oversight---is the proper way to go.  Not a self-serving free for all management.  I can give you a perfect example of integrity within.  Although it is in law enforcement, it involves the same principles that make a 'system' work from within and when oversight is applied-the upper superiors and judges have the knowledge the basics do not include wrong doing, emotions and unfair practices.

The one state highway patrol I am thoroughly familiar with has to write/issue traffic tickets with uniformity and consistency so the topic of fairness is not jeopardized.  For example, each trooper has complete discretion for speeding violations from 1 to 14 mph over the posted speed limit.  However, it is a strict unwritten regulation--but adhered to rule that, a trooper has to issue citations with the utmost uniformity.  The trooper must write everyone issued a speeding ticket within his own protocol of what magic number gets a ticket.  If he issues Bill a citation for 6 mph over the limit, he must issue everyone for 6 over that he stops.  It is a 15mph over that is state law mandated for a citation and not a warning, etc.   Now, if Bill gets a warning for the 6 mph over, then you-I and our family members must get the same warning as well.  So, in court the judge will not see a discrepancy in any one troopers speeding citations where it could be based on color, creed, age, gender, sexual bias, a rotten neighbor, etc.  Hence, a motorist receiving a citation for 4 mph over storms into the state police barracks and demands upon the Captain that the trooper that wrote him a speeding ticket last night was spiteful, hateful and a racist bum.  Covered, handled because of integrity and protocol.

Last week I was leaving a job site at about 2:30am.  I received a call to respond to another emergency which was about 110 miles away.  It was late, the divided 2 lane highway I was on, had no one in sight.  I was doing in excess of 20mph over the speed limit trying to get to the interstate that had an emergency and partial shut down.  The fire department on site does not clean up the mess, they only assist to contain it if it is a fire hazard or threatens ground water or humans, etc.  So I was stopped by a sheriff about half way there.  I seen him flip around from the on coming traffic, I look down and saw the 20 mph plus over.  I pulled over, put the interior light on and put my hands on the wheel for him.  He comes up and says that he thought I was the state patrol and then saw the vehicle's colors were different.  Asked why the rush and all that.  I told him.  He goes, I have no discretion over 19 mph, but I will call my supervisor and see if he will come out.  About 10 min's his super pulls up and says it is okay to let me go without writing a citation. 

Checks and balances, rules and regulations and how they are administered is called governance.  Unfortunately for varying jurisdictions and industries their are abuses and lack of.   

[alrelax]

Sorry, the shoe with the reader, reads the cards and that is it.  They are shuffled and set before hitting the shoe.  I do know several places that allow the players to get more than one deck cut after taking the deck out of the auto shuffler.  Once inside the shoe, the reader only helps insure the correct sequence and previous hand decision is correct. 

As far as the N9's on an opposing side, that stuff was happening in the 80's and 90's when there were no Midi/Macau style, no readers, no auto shufflers, no terminal games, etc., etc. 

[WorldBaccaratKing]

Sorry, the shoe with the reader, reads the cards and that is it.  They are shuffled and set before hitting the shoe.  I do know several places that allow the players to get more than one deck cut after taking the deck out of the auto shuffler.  Once inside the shoe, the reader only helps insure the correct sequence and previous hand decision is correct. 

As far as the N9's on an opposing side, that stuff was happening in the 80's and 90's when there were no Midi/Macau style, no readers, no auto shufflers, no terminal games, etc., etc.

No SHITTTTTTTTTTT. You can have any system and of course it will lose. Who cares if it loses to natural 9 or 1-0? A loss is a loss. Reading more into it is LUDICROUS!
I wish we could get everyone together at one casino here in the USA and have a convention at the tables. God I would love it! The stories you could talk about for years and years (if anyone actually played with REAL MONEY THAT IS!).....

[HunchBacShrimp]

No SHITTTTTTTTTTT. You can have any system and of course it will lose. Who cares if it loses to natural 9 or 1-0? A loss is a loss. Reading more into it is LUDICROUS!
I wish we could get everyone together at one casino here in the USA and have a convention at the tables. God I would love it! The stories you could talk about for years and years (if anyone actually played with REAL MONEY THAT IS!).....

I find it amusing the go to insult from frustration is "...you've never even set foot in a casino..."

I am back to diligently recording the B and P decisions I witness. I'm always asked by another player, as they lean over and peer at my card what the last score was. I never know, cause I neither care nor record it. They always look at me perplexed that I'm not keeping score. I always wonder why someone who is so concerned about the score NEVER KEEPS SCORE. FFS.

As interesting as it would be to have all these personalities meet in one place, I doubt there could ever be an agreement on where. It would have to be a non Indian casino, with a live dealer, hand shuffled cards, a non mechanical shoe, at a real table. I doubt you could even get 7 to fill up a mini table, however if enough showed up for a full size table with 14 seats. That would be very entertaining indeed.

I'm in. If you will let me borrow some real money to play with. [smiley]aes/joking.png[/smiley]

HBS

[WorldBaccaratKing]

I find it amusing the go to insult from frustration is "...you've never even set foot in a casino..."

I am back to diligently recording the B and P decisions I witness. I'm always asked by another player, as they lean over and peer at my card what the last score was. I never know, cause I neither care nor record it. They always look at me perplexed that I'm not keeping score. I always wonder why someone who is so concerned about the score NEVER KEEPS SCORE. FFS.

As interesting as it would be to have all these personalities meet in one place, I doubt there could ever be an agreement on where. It would have to be a non Indian casino, with a live dealer, hand shuffled cards, a non mechanical shoe, at a real table. I doubt you could even get 7 to fill up a mini table, however if enough showed up for a full size table with 14 seats. That would be very entertaining indeed.

I'm in. If you will let me borrow some real money to play with. [smiley]aes/joking.png[/smiley]

HBS

HBS, I play with real money. I backup my talk with PLAY with REAL MONEY! I don't know why we all squabble with each other. We can all agree that there isn't a system on earth that can win EVERY shoe. No way, no how.....You would need a table with UNLIMITED spread and you would need MILLIONS of dollars and you could simply bet BANKER or PLAYER to come in and martingale it....That is a fairy tale and does not exist so no need to talk about it.....

I keep seeing the same stuff re-hashed time after time after time..................

I don't know why im even replying.....? i guess its sunday night and im bored.

I will say this about ALRELAX. I have spoke to him a few times at length and I think his a good guy and means well. He went OUT OF HIS WAY and contacted a host at foxwoods who could accommodate me for a weekend. How many people would do that for a stranger they spoke to a few times?

Al is a good guy. He means well. He says what he thinks and that's ok. Is his way the RIGHT way? The ONLY way? HELLLLLLLLLLLL nooooooooooooo. There is NO RIGHT or WRONG way. We all have different likes, dislikes, financial issues, tolerances, etc etc etc............

Its like the stock market. I know guys who have millions, yet if they lose 10-20k they won't SLEEP for 1-2 days! They are SICK. mentally they can't handle the stress of losing. It eats them up inside. the brain doesn't like losing....

No system is a one fit all. Just like a diet. No diet, NOT ONE will work for everyone. everyones bodies reacts to different foods, activities, and processes it differently. Gambling is the same thing, systems are the same thing. Holy smokes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyways, al plans on being in Foxwoods in a few months and I plan on meeting him and see how he plays and see if he bets like he does, gets the perks he claims, etc etc. Does it matter? Not really, I like al. But, I don't think his a BS'er....I think his the real deal based on the host I spoke to.......

can't we all just get along?

[alrelax]

Worldbacking, the host was a Vice President of marketing.  Unfortunately things have changed there at Foxwoods recently as we discussed and they count on selling those rooms on weekends for north of $350 each for a standard cheapest room, etc.  Also, all hosts and everyone in marketing including the Vice Presidents have to submit all room and suite requests to the room committee to get approved, just a new pain in the rear procedure.  Anyways, no problem.  That host called my wife and I last week and she is paying our airfare and giving me 3,000 points for the shopping mall there.  I personally done better at Mohegan and my host there is the Vice President over all the hosts so I would be fixed up but I believe we will be staying at Foxwoods. 

She is very conservative in what she says on the phone and unless you know her, she is hard to figure out.  But she will try to cross-reference you to my account and justify a comp'd room for the weekend.  Maybe we will just get a 2 bedroom suite and my side will take the one bedroom and my mother in law can crash in the living room part.  She has to come along cause the baby will be coming as always.  It's not a problem at all. 

[WorldBaccaratKing]

Worldbacking, the host was a Vice President of marketing.  Unfortunately things have changed there at Foxwoods recently as we discussed and they count on selling those rooms on weekends for north of $350 each for a standard cheapest room, etc.  Also, all hosts and everyone in marketing including the Vice Presidents have to submit all room and suite requests to the room committee to get approved, just a new pain in the rear procedure.  Anyways, no problem.  That host called my wife and I last week and she is paying our airfare and giving me 3,000 points for the shopping mall there.  I personally done better at Mohegan and my host there is the Vice President over all the hosts so I would be fixed up but I believe we will be staying at Foxwoods. 

She is very conservative in what she says on the phone and unless you know her, she is hard to figure out.  But she will try to cross-reference you to my account and justify a comp'd room for the weekend.  Maybe we will just get a 2 bedroom suite and my side will take the one bedroom and my mother in law can crash in the living room part.  She has to come along cause the baby will be coming as always.  It's not a problem at all.

Need I say anymore? A class act all the way. A guy willing to give up his contacts that HE MADE to me, someone he don't know from adam.....

2 other people I know on this board (besides Al) who would do such a thing because I know them and out of respect (they know who they are), I won't mention their names because I don't want feathers ruffled. Anyways, Al, I will try my best to meet you there and have every intention of doing so. You know my situation and I just have to find time to get away but the weekends are best for me so it shouldnt be a problem!

I appreciate your hospitality....Talk to you soon. Call you this week or text you im off to bed......

[HunchBacShrimp]

HBS, I play with real money. I backup my talk with PLAY with REAL MONEY! I don't know why we all squabble with each other. We can all agree that there isn't a system on earth that can win EVERY shoe. No way, no how.....You would need a table with UNLIMITED spread and you would need MILLIONS of dollars and you could simply bet BANKER or PLAYER to come in and martingale it....That is a fairy tale and does not exist so no need to talk about it.....

I keep seeing the same stuff re-hashed time after time after time..................

I don't know why im even replying.....? i guess its sunday night and im bored.

I will say this about ALRELAX. I have spoke to him a few times at length and I think his a good guy and means well. He went OUT OF HIS WAY and contacted a host at foxwoods who could accommodate me for a weekend. How many people would do that for a stranger they spoke to a few times?

Al is a good guy. He means well. He says what he thinks and that's ok. Is his way the RIGHT way? The ONLY way? HELLLLLLLLLLLL nooooooooooooo. There is NO RIGHT or WRONG way. We all have different likes, dislikes, financial issues, tolerances, etc etc etc............

Its like the stock market. I know guys who have millions, yet if they lose 10-20k they won't SLEEP for 1-2 days! They are SICK. mentally they can't handle the stress of losing. It eats them up inside. the brain doesn't like losing....

No system is a one fit all. Just like a diet. No diet, NOT ONE will work for everyone. everyones bodies reacts to different foods, activities, and processes it differently. Gambling is the same thing, systems are the same thing. Holy smokes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyways, al plans on being in Foxwoods in a few months and I plan on meeting him and see how he plays and see if he bets like he does, gets the perks he claims, etc etc. Does it matter? Not really, I like al. But, I don't think his a BS'er....I think his the real deal based on the host I spoke to.......

can't we all just get along?

I play with real money too. Maybe not large sums of money like some. "real money" But it isn't 10 pence a hand online either. I play B&M only. There is little one can do to prove it one way or the other online though.

A lot of old things get brought back up. I expect some of it is by new players, or old players make 'new to them' discoveries. I'm sure some stuff gets forgotten. And then there is always 'hope'. That driving force that makes you go back to the casino and hope to win this time, makes you push out one more bet, increase your bet beyond your comfort zone. That has you go over some old information hoping you find something everyone has missed. It's just part of human nature.

I find alrelax handles himself pretty well in the face of constantly being attacked for every thread he starts. I don't know the past history he has had with other members of this board, but he certainly handles it 100% better than I would. He doesn't seem to be full of malice or intentionally misleading anyone down the wrong path.

It seems like he is going out of his way to accommodate you on your next gambling trip. I agree, few would put forth the effort. He doesn't come across as a BSer to me either. I guess you are going to find out, or have already found out first hand.

I'll be interested in a trip report. Not for proof, but as a nice read. I enjoy reading the experience of others.

HBS