+ Register

[alrelax]

                                                POINT OF NO RETURN

When you lose, there was a clear journey, most have no idea.  If you really examine it—most likely those events will define the reasons you lost.  Most will never take this reconstructive path, but if you do you can find tangible ammunition to avoid future wrong frame-of-minds, with your gambling thought process.

The 'point of no return'.  All real gamblers have one, some of us know exactly what it is and yet, others do not have the slightest idea whatsoever.  You better find out what yours is and when it is creeping up on you, so you can avoid the place you do not relish winding up at.

Experience will prove best and usually you have to have experienced it numerous times before it will be second nature to you. 

Personally I can feel mine the highest percentage of times.  I say feel, because it is a gut wrenching, actually tangible feeling because I am an emotional type of person.  Some of us are not and some put on and believe their false persona—especially when gambling.  Which IMO, extremely hurts most rather than helping them.

To start with, you have to understand and believe in one factor—the majority of what makes up, 'The point of no return'.  Once you know and realize that, you will understand a lot more and clearer what fuels your down-slide and where you don't want to be when gambling. 

How and when it comes to you or myself, might be two different chain of events triggering it.  But it has to do with losing and the path each of us descends on, while losing.  We all have different triggers, tolerances, bank-rolls, pressure and stress.  Trying to erase a 1 or 2 or even a 3 unit deficit is simple the majority of times. Trying to erase a 15 or 20 unit deficit is a more difficult task.  Trying to erase a 50 or a 100 unit deficit is a monumental task and so on.

Our frame-of-minds when losing are not normal.  We are in a half-panic and all we can really focus on is becoming whole once again.   Through the process gets clouded and we become impatient and less and less focused.  So many things start to work against us and then the slippage into the 'point of no return', begins.

The typical thing that often happens is, you start to wager with other players because they won a few hands.  You thought process is, 'why I thought so-and-so and he had the clear vision?  I wished I would have followed him', etc.   Then you wagered with him and he lost.  Now, you get even more frustrated because he went against what you really liked or were going to wager and you got proverbially, 'sucked in'.   Then you decide to wager against that same player and inevitably, he began to win once again.  Your slippage into the 'point of no return' is gaining speed.  Your wagers become haphazard and almost everyone is the classic, 'not your normal self' when they find themselves in this position.

One way and the best way to stay out of, 'the points of no return', if you won is to stop when that win streak or the game starts to turn.   But, the highest majority of players cannot and will not do that.  They feel because they have win money or already won some—they were just warming up and the ideal time is yet to come for the session.  Meanwhile, all sorts of creative thoughts and figuring is going on inside that player's head at an alarming rate.  Previous losses to be rightfully earned back, money needed for other things is forthcoming, etc., etc., and so on.  You have to realize, you can't win every hand and you can't continue winning.  But like I pointed out, the glamorous and the greedy will usually win over rationalization, especially at the table while winning or post winning.  I am not saying to stop while on a streak.  However, if you are actually winning or breaking even on less than 50% of your hands, you are in a bad position and you are heading for the bottom of the canyon.  The bottom of the canyon is 'the point of no return'.  If you can't quickly recover, if down a bit, such as climbing up the ridge---out of the canyon, then it will only get worse.  It is just the gambling nature and chain-of-events at the casino table.  Nothing wrong, it happens and it will occur with or without your knowledge. 

There are different modes and avenues to all this.  But basically there are three.  Know them and realize which one you are always in.  #1)  Flying above the canyon; #2) Descending into the canyon/attempting to climb out of it; and #3)  The bottom of the canyon. 

I cannot tell you how many times I have witnessed a player be consistently ahead, his eyes wide and his smile huge!  Making numerous wagers where most of them won and then pressed the winnings and won even more.  Actually reaching new and clearly higher plateaus than he was used to and saying he would stop as he reached his goals and his luck.  Up considerable amounts of money.  That is a classical #1, 'Flying above the canyon.  Then that player is all pumped, untouchable and becomes 'Superman' at the table.  Other players are turning to him for guidance and suggestions as what to wager next.  The pattern is very clear, it is strong and one side is constantly repeating itself.  Then that same player will attempt the 'cut' and he wagers large on the opposite side.  Everyone follows, not a thought or a concern.  'Superman cannot be wrong'.  Everyone loses.  And the pattern and most players had the decision correct prior to following their table hero.  Yes, the cards are not guaranteed for any certain outcome, but this game is easily capitalized on by wagering with the shoe, rather than against the shoe.   When it is strong—it is strong and when it is weak—it is weak.  Follow until it falls off whatever you are following or deciding and then lose your last wager only—rather than putting your head in a vice because you went against the flow and tried to get the shoe to change.  The time to wager against the shoe, is when the shoe is producing alternate decisions and not consistently strong patterns more than a couple of times of anything definitive.  These same people that capitalized on the shoe with great success will eventually outthink themselves.  You cannot change the shoe and when players win numerous hands in a row or at least consecutively—they tend to always believe that they can.  Playing with the shoe is a huge difference and the losses and lack of anything good, profitable and giving back all or the majority of the large wins, will turn the whole aura negatively for yourself and others. 

Now that same person is into #2; 'Descending into the canyon' and of course he goes into the mode, 'attempting to climb out'.  Sometimes they will be successful and sometimes not.  No statistics on this, but IMO I would say it is clearly the highest majority of the times those players will not be able to climb out.  Sometimes they will be successful and so many times they will not.  But this is the time when you would have to seriously think that you might just be at your 'point of no return'.  And to top it all off, this is the highest emotional time so far for the session!  That is what complicates it and seldom allows the player to make that vital and usually correct decision of leaving with the majority of his buy-in and or perhaps a bit less or exactly the same amount he did enter with.  Most of us would not leave and just continue that attempt, frustration and pissed off state of losing the win money, in the attempt to climb out of the canyon and get back to that 'Superman' hero again in the session.  Most of the time you will go into full-tilt and just wind up on the floor and become wiped out.  Finding yourself smack in #3); 'The bottom of the canyon'.  While none of us want to be there, we put ourselves there.  Easily avoidable and yet so rarely avoided.  After all, you have to recognize, 'more often than not' and weigh your alternative options.  But as I said, emotions and desires will not usually allow the player the choices he actually has.  If you lost $1,000.00 no matter what you were up and think back as to how many times this has happened—how many times you have actually pulled yourself back up and cashed out successfully when down, you have your answer.  Be honest!  If you have done this 20 times and lost 17 or 18 times and recovered 2 or 3 times, cashing out $1,500.00 or $2,000.00, is it really worth the risk---all the times you have done it and will continue to do it? 

No one wants to lose.  I agree, and yes—of course!  But, if you can't win and there are times that this will happen and yet players never think of this.  Even when they have been repeatedly there, in that spot.  They are just oblivious and subconscious with their current frame-of-mind and focused on only winning.  Which might not come for numerous uncontrollable and unknown reasons.  The odds of recovery depend on a lot of things, but first and foremost is the ability to recognize what you are doing and where you are at.  Then maybe you can think clearer and stay focused in order to avoid the pitfalls that you cannot control.  Most of us and I do mean the highest majority of us at the casino table, have a huge problem controlling the things they absolutely can control and won't, rather than the things they cannot control.  Such as, the play-ability and the presentment of the events the shoe is producing.  With some conscious thought, a bit of effort—just maybe you can side step the 'point of no return' the majority of the times you would have put yourself there?

When you do win and in order to avoid #2; 'The Decent', you will be getting many consecutive winnings with few losses.  If the situation changes and you start to lose, you are most likely headed to the 'RTM' factor, the Return to Means effect or the Regression to Means.  Recognize it and be governed accordingly.  That is why 'money management', 'progression play' and a rock-solid system for holding and dividing up your win money are all so vitally important in Baccarat.  But, you have to develop and find a way to stay conscious of those things and regularly stick to it without deviation.

The only other input into this would be the time factor.  Your session is the time you are playing at the casino that day.  However, some of us for various reasons, view this different.  A single shoe or numerous shoes, a number of sessions in one day/night/week/month or even year.  It is best for all practical purposes to view your session as what you are playing in the number of shoes while at the casino during the instant time only.  You enter, you play and then you leave—that is your play session.  You will only cloud your mind and add unnecessary stress and problems by bringing in your previous losses or plays from yesterday last week or mast month, tallied up and totaled together.  It is easier to win a session than a series of sessions or a marathon session, etc.  Smaller wins are easier to lock up and repeat, than the home-run or grand slam.

Both mathematical and humanly related considerations will be factors of your play, no matter what you do or say you plan to do.  Be careful of what you allow to influence yourself while playing.  You need to step back, take a look at yourself and be conscious of your 'point of no return' and how to avoid it.

[Garfield]

I laugh when read this, been there too many times. Well all I could say this come from a person who have play for a while, tasted the sweet of winning and suffered the old bitter lost also. Well I don't know about the rest of you, but I could perfectly pictured my self in this post.

[alrelax]

I laugh when read this, been there too many times. Well all I could say this come from a person who have play for a while, tasted the sweet of winning and suffered the old bitter lost also. Well I don't know about the rest of you, but I could perfectly pictured my self in this post.

Garfield I've been there and i have done that many times in the past I would normally give back to winning sometimes the buy-ins but I've changed many years ago and I found a much better way and I've tried to describe that in the writings I've been criticized for I've tried to help people on the board but they're convinced you can buy a system and profit 99% and just win and win and win. It's far from that and I found a very good way to play Baccarat and a lot of it has to do with Psych and your own thoughts and experience. If people learn some of this specially the down sides and the inevitable losing that creeps in, they would probably do much better and not give back so much of the winning. You have to experience the dark stuff before you can actually profit from the good stuff. Unfortunately for many of us we're so hard-headed and stubborn it doesn't come that easy. And the hardest part is actually walking away with win money when I win, but at least I can apply my consciousness with the experience as I play knowing what might happen in the next section of the shoe.  If you didn't experience it all, someone would say I have no idea what I am writing.

[Lungyeh]

I posted somewhere that I bought Baccarat Players Advantage by mistake when I had wanted to buy Steven's TUBS. I am on record in this forum more than a year back that have a written a book but it is still being validated and I have sent to a few forum members to review and comment. Most have been polite to say only good things about it. I am also on record to say that I had wanted to donate the proceeds to charity. Nothing has materialised as yet as I kept on making changes and also trying to arrange a Mandarin version. I expect to wrap up the English version this month of July.

Since of late, book writers have come onto the forum to sell their publicationI posted somewhere that I bought Baccarat Players Advantage by mistake when I had wanted to buy Steven's TUBS. I have a written a book but it is still being validated and I have sent to a few forum members to review and comment. Most have been polite to say only good things about it. I am also on record to say that I had wanted to donate the proceeds to charity. Nothing has materialised as yet as I kept on making changes and also trying to arrange a Mandarin version. I expect to wrap it up this month of July.

Since of late, book writers have come onto the forum to sell their publications (I have no objections on this), I would like to offer my book to ALL members for FREE for your review, pleasure and further action.

PM me and I will email you the PDF file. Just give me your word that you will review it and give me your honest comments. And do donate to betselection if you find the book better than what is being peddled here on this forum. The book will only be for your personal reading pleasure and not to be distributed to any other party without my written permission. Please help me preserve its publication value for charity should a decision be made to go into print in future.

I think it's a really good book and one reviewer has told me its the best Baccarat book he has ever read. Maybe he has read 2 books so far! 😂😂 Judge for yourself

All for one and one for all.

[alrelax]

Lungyeh, nice. Send be s copy you have my email. as well I am once again putting together a semi truck load of school supplies, back packs, hygiene products and school gym clothing for underprivileged kids this month and next.  I need help. Thanks. 

[alrelax]

                                                POINT OF NO RETURN

When you lose, there was a clear journey, most have no idea.  If you really examine it—most likely those events will define the reasons you lost.  Most will never take this reconstructive path, but if you do you can find tangible ammunition to avoid future wrong frame-of-minds, with your gambling thought process.

The 'point of no return'.  All real gamblers have one, some of us know exactly what it is and yet, others do not have the slightest idea whatsoever.  You better find out what yours is and when it is creeping up on you, so you can avoid the place you do not relish winding up at.

Experience will prove best and usually you have to have experienced it numerous times before it will be second nature to you. 

Personally I can feel mine the highest percentage of times.  I say feel, because it is a gut wrenching, actually tangible feeling because I am an emotional type of person.  Some of us are not and some put on and believe their false persona—especially when gambling.  Which IMO, extremely hurts most rather than helping them.

To start with, you have to understand and believe in one factor—the majority of what makes up, 'The point of no return'.  Once you know and realize that, you will understand a lot more and clearer what fuels your down-slide and where you don't want to be when gambling. 

How and when it comes to you or myself, might be two different chain of events triggering it.  But it has to do with losing and the path each of us descends on, while losing.  We all have different triggers, tolerances, bank-rolls, pressure and stress.  Trying to erase a 1 or 2 or even a 3 unit deficit is simple the majority of times. Trying to erase a 15 or 20 unit deficit is a more difficult task.  Trying to erase a 50 or a 100 unit deficit is a monumental task and so on.

Our frame-of-minds when losing are not normal.  We are in a half-panic and all we can really focus on is becoming whole once again.   Through the process gets clouded and we become impatient and less and less focused.  So many things start to work against us and then the slippage into the 'point of no return', begins.

The typical thing that often happens is, you start to wager with other players because they won a few hands.  You thought process is, 'why I thought so-and-so and he had the clear vision?  I wished I would have followed him', etc.   Then you wagered with him and he lost.  Now, you get even more frustrated because he went against what you really liked or were going to wager and you got proverbially, 'sucked in'.   Then you decide to wager against that same player and inevitably, he began to win once again.  Your slippage into the 'point of no return' is gaining speed.  Your wagers become haphazard and almost everyone is the classic, 'not your normal self' when they find themselves in this position.

One way and the best way to stay out of, 'the points of no return', if you won is to stop when that win streak or the game starts to turn.   But, the highest majority of players cannot and will not do that.  They feel because they have win money or already won some—they were just warming up and the ideal time is yet to come for the session.  Meanwhile, all sorts of creative thoughts and figuring is going on inside that player's head at an alarming rate.  Previous losses to be rightfully earned back, money needed for other things is forthcoming, etc., etc., and so on.  You have to realize, you can't win every hand and you can't continue winning.  But like I pointed out, the glamorous and the greedy will usually win over rationalization, especially at the table while winning or post winning.  I am not saying to stop while on a streak.  However, if you are actually winning or breaking even on less than 50% of your hands, you are in a bad position and you are heading for the bottom of the canyon.  The bottom of the canyon is 'the point of no return'.  If you can't quickly recover, if down a bit, such as climbing up the ridge---out of the canyon, then it will only get worse.  It is just the gambling nature and chain-of-events at the casino table.  Nothing wrong, it happens and it will occur with or without your knowledge. 

There are different modes and avenues to all this.  But basically there are three.  Know them and realize which one you are always in.  #1)  Flying above the canyon; #2) Descending into the canyon/attempting to climb out of it; and #3)  The bottom of the canyon. 

I cannot tell you how many times I have witnessed a player be consistently ahead, his eyes wide and his smile huge!  Making numerous wagers where most of them won and then pressed the winnings and won even more.  Actually reaching new and clearly higher plateaus than he was used to and saying he would stop as he reached his goals and his luck.  Up considerable amounts of money.  That is a classical #1, 'Flying above the canyon.  Then that player is all pumped, untouchable and becomes 'Superman' at the table.  Other players are turning to him for guidance and suggestions as what to wager next.  The pattern is very clear, it is strong and one side is constantly repeating itself.  Then that same player will attempt the 'cut' and he wagers large on the opposite side.  Everyone follows, not a thought or a concern.  'Superman cannot be wrong'.  Everyone loses.  And the pattern and most players had the decision correct prior to following their table hero.  Yes, the cards are not guaranteed for any certain outcome, but this game is easily capitalized on by wagering with the shoe, rather than against the shoe.   When it is strong—it is strong and when it is weak—it is weak.  Follow until it falls off whatever you are following or deciding and then lose your last wager only—rather than putting your head in a vice because you went against the flow and tried to get the shoe to change.  The time to wager against the shoe, is when the shoe is producing alternate decisions and not consistently strong patterns more than a couple of times of anything definitive.  These same people that capitalized on the shoe with great success will eventually outthink themselves.  You cannot change the shoe and when players win numerous hands in a row or at least consecutively—they tend to always believe that they can.  Playing with the shoe is a huge difference and the losses and lack of anything good, profitable and giving back all or the majority of the large wins, will turn the whole aura negatively for yourself and others. 

Now that same person is into #2; 'Descending into the canyon' and of course he goes into the mode, 'attempting to climb out'.  Sometimes they will be successful and sometimes not.  No statistics on this, but IMO I would say it is clearly the highest majority of the times those players will not be able to climb out.  Sometimes they will be successful and so many times they will not.  But this is the time when you would have to seriously think that you might just be at your 'point of no return'.  And to top it all off, this is the highest emotional time so far for the session!  That is what complicates it and seldom allows the player to make that vital and usually correct decision of leaving with the majority of his buy-in and or perhaps a bit less or exactly the same amount he did enter with.  Most of us would not leave and just continue that attempt, frustration and pissed off state of losing the win money, in the attempt to climb out of the canyon and get back to that 'Superman' hero again in the session.  Most of the time you will go into full-tilt and just wind up on the floor and become wiped out.  Finding yourself smack in #3); 'The bottom of the canyon'.  While none of us want to be there, we put ourselves there.  Easily avoidable and yet so rarely avoided.  After all, you have to recognize, 'more often than not' and weigh your alternative options.  But as I said, emotions and desires will not usually allow the player the choices he actually has.  If you lost $1,000.00 no matter what you were up and think back as to how many times this has happened—how many times you have actually pulled yourself back up and cashed out successfully when down, you have your answer.  Be honest!  If you have done this 20 times and lost 17 or 18 times and recovered 2 or 3 times, cashing out $1,500.00 or $2,000.00, is it really worth the risk---all the times you have done it and will continue to do it? 

No one wants to lose.  I agree, and yes—of course!  But, if you can't win and there are times that this will happen and yet players never think of this.  Even when they have been repeatedly there, in that spot.  They are just oblivious and subconscious with their current frame-of-mind and focused on only winning.  Which might not come for numerous uncontrollable and unknown reasons.  The odds of recovery depend on a lot of things, but first and foremost is the ability to recognize what you are doing and where you are at.  Then maybe you can think clearer and stay focused in order to avoid the pitfalls that you cannot control.  Most of us and I do mean the highest majority of us at the casino table, have a huge problem controlling the things they absolutely can control and won't, rather than the things they cannot control.  Such as, the play-ability and the presentment of the events the shoe is producing.  With some conscious thought, a bit of effort—just maybe you can side step the 'point of no return' the majority of the times you would have put yourself there?

When you do win and in order to avoid #2; 'The Decent', you will be getting many consecutive winnings with few losses.  If the situation changes and you start to lose, you are most likely headed to the 'RTM' factor, the Return to Means effect or the Regression to Means.  Recognize it and be governed accordingly.  That is why 'money management', 'progression play' and a rock-solid system for holding and dividing up your win money are all so vitally important in Baccarat.  But, you have to develop and find a way to stay conscious of those things and regularly stick to it without deviation.

The only other input into this would be the time factor.  Your session is the time you are playing at the casino that day.  However, some of us for various reasons, view this different.  A single shoe or numerous shoes, a number of sessions in one day/night/week/month or even year.  It is best for all practical purposes to view your session as what you are playing in the number of shoes while at the casino during the instant time only.  You enter, you play and then you leave—that is your play session.  You will only cloud your mind and add unnecessary stress and problems by bringing in your previous losses or plays from yesterday last week or mast month, tallied up and totaled together.  It is easier to win a session than a series of sessions or a marathon session, etc.  Smaller wins are easier to lock up and repeat, than the home-run or grand slam.

Both mathematical and humanly related considerations will be factors of your play, no matter what you do or say you plan to do.  Be careful of what you allow to influence yourself while playing.  You need to step back, take a look at yourself and be conscious of your 'point of no return' and how to avoid it.

Read this 21,  has more to do with what to bet and when to pour it on and when to walk away, a. F***k of a lot more than 1% does!

[21 Aces]

Thanks!  I just installed Reedy so now my reading will skyrocket.  It can read internet pages or copied in text, etc. out loud.

[21 Aces]

#2; 'Descending into the canyon' is the most important aspect of the game as a rough start typically moves a player into the negative.  Players often start to increase their bet size in a deficit which can quickly return them to zero or very likely increase the negative position.  Subsequent to that, even when players tighten up their performance and start to win back it becomes much more difficult.

There are so many dynamics at work, but I have often had sessions where I am good enough close to zero only to slip back down with a series of losses and get right back into the lower range of the negative on the session.