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[alrelax]

Dedicated:

Well, 'another member' touched on it in one of his posts--which was, "Absolutely floors me to see someone betting banker nearly every hand until banker streaks and then they bet against it until they bust". 

I have played the game pretty much since the early/mid 80's.  You know, the game has changed, and talking with a old acquaintance last night in the Midwest who is a pit manager originally from Atlantic City with work experience from 1990, he attests to the same thing.

We deduced down, the current trend of continually play for the 'cut' pretty much started around the time the properties were pulling all the big tables and replacing with Macau/Midi or Mini style tables.  Mostly Asians but other non-Asians get sucked in too. 

Before the removal of most big tables, people kind of played together, camaraderie was huge no matter what nationality or gender the people were, same or opposite.  And NOT just wagering for the trend of a streak pattern but as well playing the chop-chop, etc. Now it is noticeably different and IMHO not for the better. 

What I do see, more in the Midwest than elsewhere on a consistent nature is the 'playing for the cut'.  Never changes.  Last night there was a couple shoes in a row at a $25.00 to $3,000.00 Macau/Midi table.  Strong first half and stronger second half--4 solid runs of both bankers and players.  2 runs of 10 and 12 Bankers and 2 runs of 7 and 8 Players.  Followed by solid 2's and 3's of each between the runs.  A strong shoe, no doubt, no arguing. Put a bunch of the old school players at that same shoe and guaranteed the dealer's chip rack would have been minus all the lavender and orange, all of it.

Lots of money flowing into the table, everyone losing.  Like HunchBacShrimp pointed out, every repeating banker or player, the people are wagering for the 'cut'.  And to boot, which I believe from the past years of play, when the shoe is strong--it is strong, no changing it.  When it is weak, it is weak.  (A weak shoe is the time to wager heavily on the cut, again-IMO and opinions of many old school players)  Sorry the game does not change, never did, only the unintelligent jerk bonus wagers were added.  The game is and was always the same.

What I mean by 'strong' is say on the repeating banks, the player shows 8 and the banker returns a 9.  The player returns a 7 and the Banker returns 5 and pulls a 3 or 4.  Every hand the players has a fairly high value hand but gets beat and then the same on the player repeats, etc.   Repeatedly, not once or twice or three times out of 20 but like 16 to 18 times.  That is a classic 'strong' shoe.

The way I learned to play was to go with the shoe.  No matter what it was doing, weak, strong-whatever.  Yes and a capital YES!  The shoe can change the opposite way at anytime.  But it is the same as a traffic cop that is always, like 6 out of 7 days at the same spot on the highway, once you learn it why would you recklessly speed by at the spot???

The game is NOT beatable, no game in the casino is "BEATABLE", they are playable.  That is why they are there.

I just don't fully understand the reasoning behind the players of today.  The concrete belief there could only be 'a certain something' pattern.  Which seems to always involve the pattern in their minds 'cutting' to the other side.  And when the repeats/streaks happen they are floored, mouths drop.  This is what is changed from the before 2000 players and attitudes.

The camaraderie used to be huge and I mean huge.  Players slapping each other's back and convincing each other to 'pump it up' and wager big, etc.  Yes, players lost of course, but more players as a whole won back then, compared to the tables now.  There were miserable shoes, yes---but there was not the amount of players continually wagering for the 'cut' and never capitalizing on runs/streaks as I have observed in the recent years. Back in the 80's and 90's, it would pretty much be a cold day in burning hell if the majority or at least everyone but 1 person if that, was not on a run of 5/6 or greater.  Players used to tone it down or wait if banker or player made 3 maybe 4 and wanted to wager for the cut, not continually wager getting wiped out.  With a huge bankroll and high limits, say $20k table limit a person can come out of playing for the 'cut' by continually wagering double progression bets on the same side and wait for the shoe to make the 'cut'.  But not with limits less than $5k.  $200/$400/$800/1,600/Maybe One More than you can't wager that way any longer.

Oh well.

[alrelax]

Here you go again KFB:

I wrote about Big Table and Midi Table baccarat with the players handling the cards and the shoe in my Blog a couple of days ago.  I was chatting with a past host that spent 10 years in Atlantic City, 10 Years in Connecticut and 4 in Florida and is now heading up one of the properties in Eastern Pennsylvania. 

We got on the subject about Baccarat, the players and some people we used to both know.  After the proverbial where is so and so and have you seen so and so, etc., we got on the subject about the old school play at the Big Tables in A.C. and in Connecticut. 

The guy brings up a time at the high limit room in Bally's Grand (the original Steve Wynn's, The Golden Nugget) where Larry Holmes was in the back of the pit playing blackjack.  Whenever Holmes would have a huge hand out there and he would have a 14-15 or 16 he would yell out really loud, "Hit Me"!  And go into a short dialog as to how he could take it, etc.  So while Holmes was putting on his little gambling show one night, we are all at an absolutely full Big Baccarat table. 

All I remember about the prelude to the long streak was there was a period of chop and repeating 2's.  Half the table knows each other and half does not.  I'm sitting on a side with all Asian (due to my wife and her friends) and the other side was predominately Americans.  A couple or few Bankers come out in a row and most of the opposite side of the table were wagering on Players side even though they had the shoe.  I nudged my wife's best friend next to me and tell her Banker Run time.  She pushes in a few thousand and we all follow.  The players on the other end of the table look frustrated and not very happy.  They snicker and continue to wager Players.  I don't remember the exact count of the cards but it looked in favor of the Players rather than Bankers on the first four cards revealed.  The Players took a card and it increased them to 7 or 8 and Banker had like a one or 2 and I believe there was only one or two cards possible to win or tie.  So,  I let out a huge "Hit Me"! cry and Holmes jumped up and came over.  He goes, "Hit Him"!  I got the only card we needed to win and Holmes and I and the Asian girls all high fived.  We continued this same thing for like 10 or 12 more consecutive times on the Banker while 1/2 the table wagered players every single hand, larger and larger against the Banker streak.  Holmes stood there with us for the whole streak and kept yelling "Hit Him" or "Hit Her" depending on who was turning over the cards.  It was talked about for many years at The Grand.  They even passed the shoe rather then keeping it and the dealer told us after the game that, when the shoe hit the last seat before coming down to our side of the table the people said, "Don't pass that shoe down there until it makes a Player".

The Banker was strong and it was a classic sign that there would be a run and it stayed strong no matter what the Players had, even an 8 or 9.  Banker would win or tie.  It is just something after all these years that I continually see, even at a Mini Table where every seat is full, the players all of their heads in their hands,  and they are wagering over the shoulder 2 and 3 deep, almost all of them on the opposite side of the streak.  I just never understood the phenomenon of continuous wagering to cut, more than anything else??

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Big table & midi as compared to mini and today's baccarat action.

I know some here play in live casinos and as well, some play on line or in casinos that have only the newer 'Mini' Baccarat where the dealer controls the shoe, the cards and the game.  For the sake of those that have never played 'Midi' or 'Big Table' Baccarat I will explain them.

The rules are the same except for the Dragon Bonus options or the Panda option.  All the card pulling rules are the same.  Note>>>  I am not saying (but of wholehearted belief) that there is a distinct advantage with a Midi or Big Table baccarat game over the Mini baccarat version.  That is due to the fact a player can ride with camaraderie and positive feelings of others that are winning. You also don't get sucked into wagering so fast and playing as many hands as the typical player does with the Mini version.

The Big Table has been removed from many casinos and remain in few these days.  That was the original table seen all over including the Dunes, Riviera, Stardust, Aladdin, Caesars, Sahara, Desert Inn and Frontier, and all the other pre-Mega Resort properties etc., in Vegas, all over Atlantic City as well as Reno and Tahoe.  When gambling came into other markets such as Connecticut, Florida and California the Big Table also started their baccarat days as well.  The Big Table had 7 players able to be seat on each side with a total of 14 players in the game.  It took excessive personnel to run the game.  3 Dealers, 2 dealers to work the chip rack, 1 dealer facing the one end and the other dealer facing the other end.  The dealers both shared the same chip rack-bank and sat side by side.  There was 1 dealer standing up opposite the chip rack in the middle and that dealer would call the cards and place them in the middle of the table in front of the commission chips and chip rack.  Each end of the table took 1 floor person as well.  It would also take one extra floor person for relief of the floor people and one extra dealer to relieve the dealers.  So each Big Table baccarat game would actually take a total of 7 casino personnel to run. 

Big Table baccarat would have the shoe travel around the table amongst the players to deal the cards.  The shoe would start with the player in seat number 1 and travel around in order to seat 15  and then start over again with seat 1.  The shoe remained with any given player as long as the winning hand was a Banker.  Once a player hand won the shoe would travel.  A player could wager on either side, Banker or Player.  The majority of the players did wager on the Banker when they received the shoe as the desire was to get a long bank and keep pulling down the winning paid wagers.  The momentum and the motivation was huge and grew quickly by a player who started to make a couple/several Bankers.  At times the camaraderie and the aura of the table was crazy, loud and rambunctious to attempt a description.  For those of you who never saw a Big Table in action, it is a contrast to most all Mini Table games.  It was very bad luck to pass a show, have the shoe skip over you as then it was considered to be out of turn and the chain of events broken.  Meaning, someone else would be getting that long Banker run. 

The shoe was caressed, rubbed, banged, jilted, talked nice to and cussed at, depending on the mode and happiness of the player that maintained the shoe.  Once the dealer standing would call for the cards, the player with the shoe would deal.  First card pulled and not exposed, slid on the felt (never picked up) to the dealer, the second card tucked under the corner of the shoe for the Banker and the 3rd slid again to the dealer for the Player and the 4th tucked under the shoe.  If the player with the shoe was wagering Player, the dealer would turn the cards and tell the player, "You hand for the Players show...." and then the Bankers cards would be generally flipped over pretty quick or immediately.  If there was a higher wager from another player on the Player's side then the dealer would throw the 2 Players cards to that player to peek, peel, flipped, manipulate and play with the cards.  With much superstition and beliefs the cards would finally be exposed by the player handling them. 

If the player with the shoe was wagering Banker, the Players cards would still be exposed in the same manner as described and then the Banker would go to work on his Bank cards.  There are so many ways players would turn the cards over and get them to the dealer, it would be hard to mention them all.  A few players would just flip them over and toss them in while the majority of the players, peek and peel each one trying to build their hand to 9.  Of course we all knew and know that, the hand won't change no matter what.  But in the spirit of the game it has always been played with tenacity, perfection, patience and desire.  It was a very common belief and still is, to quickly expose cards as luck would not follow the person doing that.   Players would rip up cards, throw cards up in the air, attempt to get them into the discard bucket for a dead hand, all kinds of things.  If you played long enough you would witness just about every shenanigan and method of handling the cards.   And then there was the classic.  Quite often one side of the Big Table would be wagering against the other side.  Say a player all the way down at the other end slammed down a 8 for the players side.  The banker worked the Bankers cards and saw it was a 9.  Countless times those cards would be thrown all the way down and a hopeful shot would land them smack in front of the other player that slammed down the Player side 8.  Of course, the Banker is supposed to get the those to the standing dealer and not to the other player.  Personalities would dictate the aura of the table and how it was played.  You seldom saw people's  heads in hands and quite people at the Big Table unlike the Mini Tables of today. 

Depending on the money on the table, the type of property and the level of players---the game could take as much as a very common 2.5 hours to complete from start to finish.  Also in the beginning al cards would have to be washed on the table and then shuffled alternately by 2 dealer.  At the end of the game, all cards would have to once again be taken from the discard bucket, placed on the top of the table and put back into the original packs, ID'd in a plastic bag and the floor person, dealers and pit boss would have to sign off on them.  The 'intermission' time was the ideal time to use the restaurant, go to the high limit lounge and get a snack or walk around for a break.  The intermission time was normally a good 30 minuets or so.  There were no free hands as there are today at most Midi tables. 

There was also a huge difference in the dress people wore to the high limit room as compared to the main floor.  It was much 'nicer' clothes and much nicer atmosphere.  The aura was one of sport rather than survival and cut throat.  People said excuse me, people shook hands, people were polite and people were respectful.  Traits that so greatly fell off the past several years.  We actually fun the majority of the nights we played, even if we wound up losing money, not always but many of the times we honestly did.  How the game and how the atmosphere has changed!   

The longest shoe I ever saw was at Caesars Palace in Atlantic City.  It was an Asian New Year's around the mid 90's.  The whole table was Asian except for me and another white guy.  Every one was playing with Orange and up chips.  Every hand was basically decided by one or another guy that appeared to be the majority of the group's leaders.  Before whatever side the table was betting on (99% of all wagers were on one side as predetermined before hand) a song would be chanted.  I had no idea as to what it was cause they were predominantly Filipino's and my wife was Korean and I did not understand them.  The shoe lasted a solid 4.5 to 5.0 hours.  Almost every hand was won.  It was the most absurd thing I every saw!  There was at least 4 suits watching the game and they never moved either.  Most won in excess of $100k on the shoe.  2 Guys had at least $300k to $500k win money from that shoe.  There were times when they would all place their wagers and the dealer would call for the cards.  The leader and the guy next to him would hold the shoe and then talk.  Suddenly it was announced to switch the wagers and every one would obliged, without even raising an eyebrow.  Then the guys would immediately and very fast deal the cards.  Almost every time we switched the wagers like that, there would be a natural for the side that we wound up wagering on.  LOL to the max. You had to sit back in your chair and just shake your head.   

There are still a few Big Tables around but common belief is that they were being removed for 2 reasons.  1) Too many personnel to run the game as compared to a Midi or Mini with 1 dealer and in a pit with a shared floor person for 4 to 6 other tables, etc.  2) The style of play allowed the players to fleece the casino of huge wins as compared to the Midi Tables that took the place of the majority of the removed Big Tables.  Depending on who you ask at the casino, you generally get one or the other answer.

Midi Table baccarat is similar but toned down as compared to Big Table baccarat.  The dealer will always maintain the shoe and give the card to the highest wagering player on Banker or Players.  Most casinos also have 'free hands' to keep the game going if the players don't care to wager on certain hands.  The Midi Table game usually is in the high limit rooms or a high limit section on the floor.  Not all casinos and not all states that have gaming have Midi Table baccarat. I have seen both commission and commission free Midi Tables.  Some Midi tables also have the bonus wagers available. 

Mini Table baccarat has the lowest limits and the dealer controls the shoe, cards and everything.  The players never touch the cards.  Some Mini Table baccarat places also have 'free hands' allowed.  There are commission free versions as well as the version with the Dragon and Panda bonuses, etc.

Unlike the on-line versions of baccarat and the Mini Table game, if you talk with many old school people about Big Table baccarat you will understand the player advantage when the shoe was 'good' to taking serious money out of the casino.  I do understand that most of the Big Table action was prior to the huge economic devastation of  2008/2009, hence less money on the tables in general from the majority of the players.   I am not saying there is any less camaraderie and boisterous games at the Midi table, but in the overall aspect of it, it is not the same as it used to be.  But then again, riding in a Lexus is a far cry and feeling on the stomach than riding in a 69 Plymouth Cuda with a Hemi 440. 

I will take a Big Table baccarat game over a Midi and over a Mini any day.  Give me some polite, experienced, loud mouth old school players and my heart will beat a bit faster.  I know the damage we can do to the casino if we get some decent shoes.  Thanks for reading! 

[alrelax]

Another one in Vegas, posted 2018, how do you know when enough is enough:

Compare a lot of baccarat and gambling to professional sport.  Even amateur versus professional statuses. 

What happened with the Vikings, whom are hands-down professional players making millions and millions of dollars a year.  They are a professional sports team with professional players, every single one of them, no? 

Or do you just select whom does great or wins and suddenly label them professional?  Huh?

So. back to the Vikings.  What happened with one of the most fantastic, professional, spot-on throws and catches in the last few seconds of the game?  The game that was going to propel them into the first Superbowl to be played in a home stadium by the home host state's team?  What happened when those professional players and professional team went to Philadelphia the following week? 

Last 6 seconds of the game, and he also stayed in bounds when it was caught as he was falling.  Amateur or Professional?  What happened the following week? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diqXGD6msfg&feature=player_embedded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTRdnbMh7Dg

Did they go for my favorite, the Philadelphia cheese-steak with the original cheez wiz?  Maybe some Center City brothel action with some Phila girls?  Maybe they desired a bit Frankie Smith and some Double Dutch Bus?  Because their game the professional Minnesota team played in a professional football stadium against another professional football team sure did not appear to be professional looking on behalf of the Vikings?

Maybe they alternate their status between amateur and professional, huh?

I was there with my kids.  It was nothing shy of professional, well executed, skilled, and miraculous.  To the millionth power.  Brings back a memory of the year before last in Vegas at Caesar's Palace, when my wife and I was at a bac table,.  Just bought in at an open table.  Just us.  I made $130k plus in a just over a shoe.  She grabs $80k, we leave the rest on the table, I follow her out to the taxi line, she tells the cab driver, go to the nearest Cadillac dealer.  She picks out the black Escalade ESV sitting on the showroom floor and says, how long before you can prep it  The salesman goes, later this afternoon.  She throws $1,000.00 on his desk, if it is down in 1, maybe 2 hours that is yours.  Are we amateurs or professionals?  By the way, the remaining money was eventually lost, but the buy-in was locked up and we left Vegas with it. 

And you know what, we were at a $500 to $25K bac table.  The last two hands I played, I throw in table max of $25k.  My wife was like sitting there, did not say anything.  Stone cold silent, just nodded her head.  I knew 100% it would be ugly, real ugly if I went from about $80k of win money down to $20-30K.  Cause I knew if I did table max and lost, the next hand I would have done table max again, to get even, at least.  But I won the first one and then I won the second one.  First hand players had 7, dealer passed me the banker cards.  A face card and an ace.  Dealer slides out the card to me and I look at my wife.  She is still stone cold silent.  I peek at it, it was a 3 line card.  Told her never lose.  A smile.  Flipped over a 7.  Next hand.  Player returns a 5.  We had a 2.  Player pulls an Ace.  My experience, that is not a pretty hand for the banker.  Dealer slides me the card.  I peek.  Another 3 line card.  Told my wife, 2 chances to win and one chance to lose.  She frowns.  Stone cold silent, repositions herself.  She reaches in and attempts to look at the card.  I told her no.  She sits back.  I see it is a 6 but did not say anything.  I tell her there is at least one dot in the middle and I need her to blow off the dot at the other end or we lose.  She is standing up blowing on it like all the Asians do and fanning it with her hand.  I flip over a 6, the dealer cracks up laughing, she looks at me and says WTF?  I told her, hey you wanted to get involved in the game no? 

[alrelax]

Read KFB!

Lots to say, answering some PM's and addressing something someone else had posted.

These days there are primarily Midi or Macau Style and Mini baccarat tables.  The difference being, Midi/Macau the players handle the cards.  The Midi table is the successor of the original larger 14 seat/3 dealer baccarat tables where the shoe was placed with the player in seat #1 and then travelled counterclockwise around the table to each player, upon a player making a winning Players hand.  As long as the player made Banker hands, the shoe stayed with the particular player.

Generally, the house got smacked and smacked real hard on long/longer Banker streaks as compared to the Midi table of today. There are still some of the larger tables left at the bigger properties and they are usually run with the players receiving the cards by the dealers, thereby making them large Midi tables.

Some players cannot stand the way people handle the cards.  In all essence and for the spirit of the game, most times it is to the players advantage.  If you don't like it and it messes with your thought process, play at the mini tables.  True 100%, no player can change the cards after they are dealt, a dead monkey with strings attached to it, would flip and flop the same cards once dealt. However, at times there are players that will return winning hands the highest majority of times and other players couldn't return a winning hand if the other side had a total of zero showing. Wager with the driver or against, based on how powerful or weak he or she is with the cards. Sounds strange and wacked out to those that never played Big Table or Midi style but it really does  boil down to that for so many.

I have considerably raised my wagers based upon another player's aura-actions and positive results in 'driving' at a Midi or a Big Table.  Under certain circumstances if the dealer was flipping/flopping such as in mini, I might not have wagered the other side, but I most certainly would not have wagered lots of the larger bets I had---when the camaraderie and the person was not doing the 'scene'. 

And there is either camaraderie or alienation here. Yes, a driver does not influence the cards/outcome WHATSOEVER, however and a huge however--the proper driver and the correct aura will influence wagers.  And with the 'music of the street' present, meaning-the sounds and the banter of the floor, the dealer, the pit personnel, the other players, the on-lookers, the cocktail waitress, and everything else around, the correct driver(s) can be an explosive 'pat on the back' and motivator.

And the passion---OMG!  Yes, absolute passion mixed with greed, desire and a bit of anger in most player's cases.  The good times-the bad times, that happen at the baccarat tables around the country, around the world.  For those of you who don't play baccarat or play only on-line, you will not relate or understand what really happens at the live Midi/Big Table baccarat tables anyway. 

The personalities, the actions, the shenanigans, the talk, the banter, the build ups and the let downs.  It's all there on a consistent basis, some nights are abundant with it all and others are lax.  But play on a regular basis and it will prevail. 

When a player that is 'driving' actually plays with his heart and soul and not to put on a 'show' he really does wind up putting on a 3 ring circus most times.  I am sorry to those that don't agree with the statement I just said or if I despised myself, however; I am only relaying this information and what actually happens.  I have tons of history with numerous gaming jurisdictions and I would just have to classify and say that, the Big Table bac days were the absolute best and far in every way--out does what happens with the majority of players and games at Midi tables today.  Mostly for two reasons.  The way so many players wager and believe in the 'cut' and their failure to play both sides, weak and strong.  Also, throw in the disbelief of 'what actually happens or can happen in playing baccarat'. 

There is no end to this thread.  I merely wanted to start something that addresses the game in overall view without the technical aspect of it.  Because in reality, there is a lot more going on than what the shoe produces!

One scenario.  Playing Midi, full table.  It was just chop-chop for numerous hands that followed a section of a few doubles and a couple of singles.  A tie and no Fortune 7's yet.  Around hand 25.  The 2nd shoe into the evening with most.  Last shoe nothing, everyone lost or is about even at best.  Yes, the last shoe and a quarter was pretty much unwinnable.  Meaning, whatever anyone thought or wagered on for whatever reason, it cut to the other side.  Happens at times.  Three Bankers just came out and the player driving wagered table max each time.  First hand everyone was on Players and players had a 6.  The sole player on Banker gets the cards and mumbles, '7 baby--7 baby, I need this please'.  He flops a monkey and says '3 sides'.  He turns the card long ways and starts the peel, real real slow.  The players all on the Players side are getting frustrated, baccarat at its best.  He slows down, puts the cigarette in his mouth and looks at the dealer.  Tell the dealer, 'a hundred for you if you gave me a 7 or an 8'.  He says no dot on it and turns it around.  Now it has been at least 45 seconds if not more.  Everyone is like come on bro let's go.  He starts the peel and then slams the 7 right side up. Now the second hand is coming out and half of the players are on Banker with the same driver and half are stuck in the 'cut' mode of thinking.  Once again the cards for the Player's side totals 0.  Bankers side returns 2.  Players side gets a card and the player driving says it a three line card.  Squeezes the heck out of the one side trying for an 8.  Turns the card and says maybe a 7, could be a six.  The other players are saying, don't matter we will win with a 6.  He flops a 6 after a few seconds.  Dealer slide the driver once again a card for the obnoxious driver.  I had $125.00 on Fortune 7 and the driver had $75.00 and most of the other players on Bankers had something on there and 1 player out of the Players side had a quarter up on the F7 as well.  Once again, the cigarette into his mouth, he looks around the table and says, '2 side-3 side no 8 and we are good huh'?  He takes a quick peek at the side and pops back up, '2 side baby, yes a 2 side--tie or hit the Fortune 7'.  He scoots his chair back and his chest is on the rail of the table.  I stand up and literally scream for a 5 and then say 5 for five thousand.  The floor person comes over.  The dealers at the next table are saying something about the nickel next to mine and the drivers' Fortune 7 wagers.  Says, 'looks like $410.00 if you gave that guy a 5'.  The dealers keep their own tips at this property.  The driver is taking his time and yes, everyone is quite except for me.  Then all of a sudden a female stands up and shouts, 'come the hell on' and mumbles something in Vietnamese that wasn't nice.  The driver stops for a second, looks at the female, looks at me, looks at the dealer, then he reaches across two spots and rubs the card on the number 5 seat number on the felt.  Rubs and rubs. Leaves it face down and tells the dealer, you turn it.  It is a 5.  Fortune 7.  Yes Baby!  Beautiful, absolutely beautiful.  The same driver goes on to make 4 more Bankers after that Fortune 7 hit.  wasn't a long run but a solid 6 and we are all good.  That's baccarat with a driver that can drive.

What so many fail to realize is the power of camaraderie coupled with the influence and the motivating factor of it.  Yes, at times it could work both ways but when it is positive and the table is flowing, it is much easier IMO and for so many I play with, to wager larger and win considerably more than at a mini table.  As I said, the passion-greed-high fiving-large wins-players driving with guts and flopping the cards making it all go our way.  It is the aura mixed in with the knowledge and conscious thought that we wagered on the person rather than the cards that makes this click in ways that are so hard to explain and define. When you see some of the players that really want to wager the opposite side that the great driver or the highest wagering player is not wagering, and then pulls his wager down and says, 'go ahead--I'm going to stay out'.  That is class-real class, no matter if the wager would have won or lost.  It is an unwritten move of sheer respect and class to do that.  Happens all the time.  On the other hand, if there is a person at the table that really feels like he has to wager the other side in that case, he normally would have the dealer flop the cards.  Again, a sign of that unwritten respect for the other players.       

[alrelax]

Yes Lungyeh, it is all possible in baccarat, the losing and the winning.  I have always said, repeatedly--"it is the easiest game to win and lose at" and most people take that with that unintelligent proverbial grain-of-salt! 

In baccarat, I only wish as a whole, the old-school way of playing would return.  But I don't see that happening in the long run.  The players are far more independent and internet 'advised' by commercial gambling systems and 'experts' usually always selling something. 

When a new player sits down and talks his talk, especially a younger person--he or she really does attract many other inexperienced players.  I am not here to psycho-analyze all of that.  However, I played throughout the 80's and 90's and it was nothing like it is today. 

The losing and the winning was all there.  The winning it all back with patience and slowing down was also all there.  What wasn't all there, was the fierce attitudes, the 'I know what I am doing as I played this game for a few months now', and all the anti-friendly and competitiveness most all the players have amongst themselves. 

Here are three examples.  And it is really against my better judgment to put it up here, but for you and for Ted009 I will.

1):  I was at Caesar's in Vegas and I was at a midi-Macau table playing by myself.  A favorite dealer and my wife was sitting there.  I was winning and I mean mad-winning.  Like up well over $100k.  Wife even put 3-$25k chips off the side for a new Escalade SUV (which we ultimately did go purchase that evening).  I was on a heater, a true heater.  I was yelling and screaming and having a great time of course.  My wife was all reserved and sitting there and high fiving and telling me to stack it up and stack it up, etc.  The dealer, an Asian guy who we really like.  Was totally amazed at how I was playing most every hand and winning.  And he dealt the game for well over 20 years also.  I was probably up around $125k if not more.  I have a habit of coloring up when I get to certain points.  Like if I am on a heater and took all the dealer's black chips, I will then color up and give most back to him, etc.  I don't color up all the winning and play only with my buy-in (buy-in NOT bankroll).  I have certain points and also my 1/3rd money-management thing I do employ, most can't figure out at the table.  So every time I get a huge hand like winning with a natural 9 over a natural 8 or a tie or something, I am smacking the table and yelling.  All normal.  This one lady would keep coming over from her reserved table and watch, then when I went in large she would opposite me of course.  And stand there, all pungent and snotty.  The dealer knew her and didn't like what she was doing either.  Would kill my mojo.  I would even turn to her and say, 'I don't do this poo-poo to you do I"?  She never batted an eyelash, stood there and tried to win a little and knock me out.  Yes, no-one changes the cards, not for anything.  But it is the clear mojo, the motivation, the high and the guts to go with your feelings.  Sorry, so many of you will berate me for saying that, but I have played this game long enough to develop my own style.  And that is, playing with the people rather than against them.  "I have won far more money playing in complete camaraderie then I would have if I played those winning shoes/tables by myself or against others, far more""! If I can't figure it out or get on a roll, I don't try to win $500 or $2,000 off someone else bad luck or stupidity.  I asked her several times if she wanted to sit down and play, and never an answer.  Only a head shake no.  Whatever.  If I had a table full of people and we had some camaraderie, that was a few hundred thousand dollar shoe if not a hell of a lot more for myself.  She kept doing this like 10 times and into the next shoe.  It was in the late afternoon so the high limit room was not busy at all.  I got frustrated and calmed down and kept winning.  My wife got pissed at me and I just felt the walls closing in and not thinking clear at all.  I found myself wagering with the thought, well I really feel this so I will wager the opposite.  And then, what I originally thought, of course prevailed. I think we left that table with right at $100k, maybe a tad bit under.

#2):  I was at Mohegan Sun and it was late at night.  Full table.  One of those big tables, 14 players with the 3 dealers.  I was in Atlantic City and a snow storm came.  Most of the people left the casino and headed home.  I had a room and was too tired to drive back home to North Jersey.  So I crashed.  A little bit after I just fell asleep, someone called me that was playing up at Mohegan Sun.  Told me the table were ultra hot and to get up there.  So I packed and checked out within minutes of course and headed up.  It took me over 6 hours to make the 4 hour or so trip.  When I got there, they all had their heads down in their hands and their was that in-fighting going on.  I bought in with $12k and they willingly passed the shoe to me.  I knew most of the people and I brought life to the table.  If you never played big table baccarat where the shoe travels from player to player and the players deal the game, you probably will not understand the camaraderie and karma that can certainly over power the shoe. There was no camaraderie there and I proceeded to bang out a whole bunch of banks.  Then I passed the shoe with the first player that I made.  Everyone was haphazard and there was visible in-fighting and arguments.  Anyway, whatever side I wagered on I was winning.  The personality of the other players was horrible and the aura in the air was so thick--one cut certainly slice it with a knife.  That kind of aura causes players to in-fight and attempt to show another up and who certainly is a better baccarat player.  The whole focus moves away from taking the casinos money to knocking another player out.  I remember like I said, I was winning and so was one other person.  I tried my best to get everyone going as we have so many times before.  They all resisted and seemed to be suspended in a lull of types.  I knew most of the players and this was not the norm, really.  Most of their heads were well into their hands and either losing or just pushing money back and forth. I continued to win and I got up over $100k easily of win money, but they all resisted and this was not the norm back a few years ago, especially at a big table. I distinctly remember that, the other players resisted so blatantly and so obnoxious it was ugly and not fun.  You have to remember, lots of these players--we all knew each other from NYC in one form or another.  We were not strangers.  I of course started to cut me own wagers down but was still winning.  I gave some back but still stayed up around the $100k mark.  To me, that is the biggest frustrating thing is wagering less than you would with co-camaraderie and a real friendly table.  Then the others are like, 'you jerk--your really a jerk for cutting your wagers down--you are winning'.  Then eventually they all started to follow and of course the mojo and all the good sections or luck or whatever you want to call it--was over and done.  Yes, I still won and won good, but it was another one of those series of a couple to 3 shoes that should have produced 10 to 20 to 40 times what I took it for.   

I am not just referring to long streaks or pure alternating chop, I am referring to the average shoe with it all mixed.  Anything I can won in baccarat, no matter the pattern/trend or non-pattern, etc.  Players band together and get through it and prosper.  Kind of like finding your way through the woods or swamp when no one knows anything versus one person with limited sight and creativity, etc. 

#3): The following was contained in an older post of mine--I will just re-post that.  IMO, they are all great examples of camaraderie at a table or 'missed big-time camaraderie' at the table, like in the example of Super bowl part day @ The Bellagio in 2011.  Here they are:

Of My Most Boss Games of Baccarat with Details:

NOTE: In my beginning years of gambling, I would definitely be inclined only to remember the highest winning shoes as memorable shoes/trips. As time passes, it is more about uniqueness and 'stand-out-ability' with the most memorable. With that said, here are mine anyways:


3 from the 90's and 1 from 2011.

The last one first. 2011 @ The Bellagio, very late afternoon waiting on the VIP Super bowl Party they have in their ballroom for invited guests. Played one shoe of Midi Bac and won about $50k. Then we went to the unintelligent beyond boring SuperBowl party in the ballroom to watch 2 teams I couldn't give 2-hoots about, Steelers and Packers. The following two shoes at that same Bac table were killer shoes for the players and I remember to this day Johnny F. and the dealer as well, both telling me how 2 players each took them for $200k and $300k respectively. I have said for a long time that good shoes comes in groups of 3, but I got caught up in the events, and lord I hate doing that, I am a gambler and really don't go for the shows and events, sure I go to some of them but not as the primary reason for going to Vegas, I still regret not staying at that table. I have played numerous times where I arrived after all the great shoes were done or I left early, etc. But never played 1 of three great easy shoes where it was possible to rake in hundreds of thousands.  NOTE:  A lot of my brother in laws and their GF's were there as well watching, one of my brother in laws was playing with a small buy-in and prospered maybe $10k or so.  The other two players are well-known members of another message board and in fact one of them is the owner/Admin of a gambling board.  He was resisting us in the 'mojo' of the shoe and although we all won that shoe, it was a clear forfeited couple hundred thousand dollar easy win. 

The next 3 are the happy ones.

The 80's and 90's to me were more fun in Atlantic City because of the type of players. Vegas had more California and west coast players as the majority and they tend to be much quieter and love to subscribe to that 'heads in the hands' syndrome at the tables. On the other hand, before 9/11 and of course before 2008 economy crash, Atlantic City had the boisterous, loud, continuous high-fiving/backslapping players that egged on the camaraderie beyond belief. Generally, the quieter times and less boisterous ones in Atlantic City was about what Vegas was generally like the majority of the times.

First time playing at Bally's Grand after the Steve Wynn days of his first casino owned by himself, The Golden Nugget. I was playing the carnival game '3-Handed Blackjack' on the main floor where you would keep your first card for the following two hands. I was up about $25k to $30k or so and my x-wife's friend grabs me by the arm and yanks me away. She brings me to the big baccarat table in the HL pit there. This is the time when there was no Midi or Macau style, only 14 seat/3 dealer big tables or mini bac on the main floor. I sit down next to her and her two sisters and there other friends all taking up one side of the table. I begin winning and whatever I touched won. The whole table, full with 14 players, begins to follow. 1/2 Asians and 1/2 White people. Most know each other and most of the dealers are all on first name basis with almost everyone. Well over $100k up after a shoe or two. We ripped up cards, threw cards out onto the main casino floor, all kinds of 'normal' bac stuff that unless you played during those times, you really have no idea. The dealers back then rarely made mistakes if ever. All shoes were hand shuffled between games taking at least 20-25 mins between shoes. Then we all ran to the main floor mini table and the floor people knew us and we were allowed to wager $100/$10k or whatever our max limit was in the HL at the big table. The regular players at mini were only allowed $25/$2,500. We would all group up and let 2 or 3 players squeeze in and hand that player from the big table our wagers for the hand. It was so loud and complex with the wagers, at least 2 if not 3 floor people would come running over when we all hit the couple of mini tables during the big table shuffles. It was fun. Once in awhile one of us would reach over and grab a card from the dealer before they turned it and we would squeeze it. The floor people would shake their heads, as then the cards would have to be changed after the shoe of course. But no one got upset, we were the players, the customers, unlike today's atmosphere. When the whole side was on one side and it lost and the results looked 'not so obvious' some of the dealers would do the wrong pay-out so quick if the floor people were not watching, you could never catch it. Like if the Players had a 6 for a 3rd card and the Banker was sitting with 6 for the first two cards, say the Banker drew a seven or a 9, the dealer would glimpse at the floor and if they were not making eye contact, a lighting fast payout to the Banker would happen. It was just the way it was occasionally and no one ever got caught. This is before the pits had the regular lounges and food, the Butlers from the private floor were called if we requested and they would go to the boardwalk and bring back 6 or 10 boxes of pizza pies and calzones from a small place on the boardwalk just north of the Grand there. But the camaraderie and the people made the scene by far and there was never a lack of it. I played here numerous times when it was Steve Wynn's joint, The Golden Nugget and after it went to Bally's I left there for the Trop/Tropicana, The Claridge, The Taj, and Caesar's to play bac. After that night I was a regular playing back at The Grand most weekends.

The next one was at The Tropicana in Atlantic City also. This is when the HL was all the way in the back of the place, I believe it would have been the west end of the casino. It was like an alcove set-up. The one big bac table they had was in the rear corner of the room. It was a full table one night. As quite frequently one side (7) players would wind up wagering the opposite side wager's than the other end of the table. A massive run came and the guy next to me had the shoe to my left (I would get the shoe next to deal). After about 3 or 4 hands he is way over confident as most of us were back then when the shoe traveled around the table. He was standing up and motioning for everyone to wager Banker. Like a Crazy Eddie (New Jersey/NYC electronic store chain-very infamous famous) commercial, exactly, the guy was actually yelling and screaming for everyone to get on the Banker. His arms waving widely, egging each and everyone to wager Banker, really getting into it. Real old school bac action and fun. (for those of you who have no idea who Crazy Eddie was, Google him and read)

The guy makes a couple or a few more Bankers, we are all wagering Pumpkins/Orange and up I think. Most of us are wagering up $5k to $10k a hand. I think there was only two hold out other players wagering on Players at this time. One was to the guy's left in seat 1 and the Banker was in seat 2 and I was in seat 3. The guy in seat 1 returns a Natural 8. The guy quickly looks at his two cards and they are both pip 4 liners. I stuck my head over and he did not see if they were 10's or not and there was another couple of players that jumped up and ran over to his back as well. The guy that retuned the players natural is all smiles and shrugging his shoulders, I can still see it clearly to this very day. The guy with the bank breaks out singing the old "Stealers Wheel" song, 'Stuck in the Middle With You'. Clearly and loudly breaks out in perfect harmony, "Clowns to the left of me and jokers to the right....I don't know why I came here tonight....I got the feeling something ain't right.....Clowns to the left of me and jokers to the right...Stuck in the middle with you". The guy slams down a pip 10 card. After a good 20 seconds or more, the guy breaks back out "You're proud that you're a self made man, and your friends they all come crawlin, slap you on the back and they say"...... he looks over at the guy with the Natural 8 and in a long drawn out verse, says "nine" and slams down the 9.

The guy with the shoe continues, makes a few more bankers, probably up to around 9 or 10 by now. Gets up even a few more, probably around 15 or so. Everyone is on the Banker now of course. (LOL, these days most would be playing for the inevitable cut missing it all, LOL!) The guy's with his wife who is now standing behind him, we are all up easily well over $100k, house down well over 1 million, suits everywhere, hosts, HL manager, casino manager, others, security hanging around, etc., the guy and his wife both break out singing "That's the Way I Like It" by KC and the Sunshine Band. Perfect lyrics perfect tone! They both keep it up until he is done with his banker run, I think it was just under 20 or maybe 20 with the ties.

Runner up 4th, almost put it as third but the others beat it out. I think of this one all the time. At Caesar's in Atlantic City also. Mid 90's. Asian/Chinese New Year. Popped in Caesar's from another property there in AC. The HL was pretty packed. Seemed all the people were pretty much their own crowd. In the original high limit room, not the later side step up area with the Asian games. This was the big tables, smack in the middle of the room. Most all looked Filipino ethnicity out of the Asian that were seated. They just started a shoe and I grab the one seat that was open. I learned that they were pretty much winning and following their one 'leader' of sorts. Everyone was on the same side and I mean everyone, every time. They would wager and then sing a song, I had no idea what they heck it was. Almost every hand every one was winning. The 'leader' would wager first, every one followed. They would even switch sides after wagering before the cards came out and of course, they were right. The shoe took a phenomenal 4 to 5 hours I remember, The house lost millions that day. Another great game that I remember.

Those are the shoes and trips I will never forget, my top four. There were plenty of other great ones, but those are in my fore-front when I think about the past.

[alrelax]

Another one for you KFB regarding the thoughts and styles, etc.:

Ted, You are not stupid. You fell into a false conception and spirit of the game.  The game was originally conceived by the Europeans and when the Asian 'adopted' it so to say--they took it all out of aspect, concept and aura. The Asian people instilled superstition and belief into the game and both were false concepts that gave tons of false belief as to what the game was really about.

I know plenty will argue with this, but the game has nothing to do with all the magical and mystic belief in dragons and many other things Asian, etc. That was al brought on by the casinos when the Asians started to play the game back in the 90's.  Yes, some Asian played it prior but nothing like the upswing of Asian attachment that came in the later 1980's.  All the layouts had nothing to do with dragons, Fortune's', Pandas, etc., all that came about because of companies that saw a niche and marketed the conversion to the Asian and did it ingenuously and spectacular, period. 

The numbers, the result of such and such, the cut because of a certain point total, how winning hands happen and how losing hands come about, why and how a trend happens or cancels, it is all ingrained in most of you through the falsehood of Asian belief and magical theory that everyone thinks they have defined, and in realty they do not and are exactly where the casino and the private developers of the game want you guys. Sad but so very true!

In western society baccarat's reputation was a glamorous game, but has largely faded.  Because the Chinese and the other Asian countries believed in all the propaganda brought about from the casinos as well as companies such as LT Gaming and The Tailsman Group who revised and renovated the original baccarat game into what it is today.  There are no deep rooted history of the game into Asian culture, the game came from France and Italy where it was first developed in ancient European culture in the Monarch days.  Long story short, believe it or not, the game made it's way to the casinos of Cuba and then to Las Vegas.  Asia never saw it before that. And that was in the 1950's.  So all the brew-ha-ha of ancient dragons and pandas and all the roads and slang, is all modern day marketing. 

The Asians simply love the characteristics of the game, because they have a false belief in the 'fate' of the cards and compare that to numbers and other characteristics that really have nothing to do with how the hands will be dealt in each shoe. But the magical and mystic believes have overcome most.

That is why any mistake by the dealer or perhaps another player, will chase players from the table, because of their evident false beliefs.  All those beliefs and magical knowledge each player attempts to decipher and cash in on, is laughed all the way to the bank by the white as well as the Asian casino owners.

In the past the reasons baccarat attracted so many non-Asian players was due to the tradition in relation to big table baccarat.  The dealers were in tuxedoes, all the players were dressed up, their casino hosts present in exclusive and high limit rooms.  Everyone had respect for each other and the atmosphere was totally different than it is today, enormously.  Those traditions and the aura of the elegance of baccarat had pretty much gone by the wayside with the onslaught of Asians entering into the player field because of the way the game was presented to them and the non-historical history of being deeply rooted in Asia, etc.

In realty, and here is where all the disagreement will come from, the game is nearly 100% luck, the only skill is really how you wager your win money in progressions, money management, and a few other things.  The game has no bet selection that can be correct al the time or even nearly all the time.  Lots of people capitalized and will capitalize on systems and training because the game is easily exploited for something it is not with many different ethnicities of players.  Not just the Asians. But so many fake and similar systems or training can be related back to Asian beliefs. Like I said before, the sad part is, there is no ancient deep rooting of the game baccarat to any Asian country. 

[alrelax]

And you know darn well what I am referring to:

" And there is either camaraderie or alienation here. Yes, a driver does not influence the cards/outcome WHATSOEVER, however and a huge however--the proper driver and the correct aura will influence wagers.  And with the 'music of the street' present, meaning-the sounds and the banter of the floor, the dealer, the pit personnel, the other players, the on-lookers, the cocktail waitress, and everything else around, the correct driver(s) can be an explosive 'pat on the back' and motivator.

And the passion---OMG!  Yes, absolute passion mixed with greed, desire and a bit of anger in most player's cases.  The good times-the bad times, that happen at the baccarat tables around the country, around the world.  For those of you who don't play baccarat or play only on-line, you will not relate or understand what really happens at the live Midi/Big Table baccarat tables anyway. 

The personalities, the actions, the shenanigans, the talk, the banter, the build ups and the let downs.  It's all there on a consistent basis, some nights are abundant with it all and others are lax.  But play on a regular basis and it will prevail."

[KungFuBac]

Fantastic read/thx alrelax for bumping up some of the older posts.

Re: Big table vs midi vs mini:
I agree on the changes happening in the game since early 2000. Mostly for the betterment of the casino as obviously the casino wouldn't alter the game unless they saw an increased ROI. Easy to see how Midi/Mini allow for smaller staffs.

Re: Higher percent of players mostly wagering for the cut:
I concur.  I see far more negprogressions vs pos progressions along with the For-The-Cut wagers. IMO more are doing steep martys  vs a slow methodical negpro that doesn't fully  recoup 100% of that losing streak. It seems many players can not stand to be in a negative-buyin state. Very few seem to wager a flat bet anymore.   I see alot of players only wagering P or only wagering B for the whole shoe/every shoe.

I perceive this broader scope of wagering systems  are largely due to two things:
1) Inet in 90s and the increased # of system sellers  and access to a much larger target audience. Just like anything else for sale by any other type of seller I guess as the WWW really opened everything to the masses.

2) The affordable and user-friendly software for statistical analyses beginning in the early 1990s and by mid90s only a few hundred dollars for a really nice stats package. So even without a working knowledge of statistics one could still crunch data and spit out complex calculations. The system sellers had a perfect situation for designing betting regimes and showing a profit after 000s ,000s or 000000s of outcomes--This allowed for great marketing tactics. Nothing against system sellers as they are not forcing folks to buy their product.


* Great stories on your top casino trip memories.

**??In your opinion : What if anything would encourage the larger casinos to at least offer one big table at their larger properties??

Thx again

[alrelax]

Fantastic read/thx alrelax for bumping up some of the older posts.

Re: Big table vs midi vs mini:
I agree on the changes happening in the game since early 2000. Mostly for the betterment of the casino as obviously the casino wouldn't alter the game unless they saw an increased ROI. Easy to see how Midi/Mini allow for smaller staffs.


**??In your opinion : What if anything would encourage the larger casinos to at least offer one big table at their larger properties??

Thx again

On a regular basis problem nothing.  Last time I was at Vegas, 5 years ago, only 3 big tables were on the floors.  Bellagio, Caesars, Wynn.  MGM would bring it out for special occasions I was told by a Bellagio host. 

To run a big table you need a dedicated 7 personnel team.  3 dealer's with a dedicated relief dealer.  2 floor people with a dedicated relief floor.  When in comparison two large Midi/Macau style table could handle the same 14 players, with 2 dealers and a rotating dealer serving yet other tables.   No dedicated floor as the floor personnel handles 4-8 tables easily in the pit with a rotational relief serving yet other pits. 

I highly doubt any will ever be added.