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[alrelax]

They are not necessarily entwined or are they always independent, yet most shoes will have some type of all 3 ratios within sections and identified by numerous turning points.  Those players that do not recognize this, IMO--are missing out on so much valuable information and a path to the clear (or clearer) path the shoe will produce in its pending formations.  The ratios are distinctive and they appear and dissipate.  Most players do not have any idea what they should really look for.  The players that generally look for 'something' from statistical and test data results find such haphazardness and in-harmony for their wagers to win, their frustration and aggravation levels are enormous.

"Ratios are the simplest mathematical (statistical) tools that reveal significant relationships hidden in mass of data, and allow meaningful comparisons".

I have finally defined what I discovered in Baccarat, the 3 ratios that normally make-up a shoe.  I am working on the definement and other info relating to this.  Here is the visible outline.  Of course subjective to each of the experienced baccarat players to define and discuss their own identification, triggers, and literal outlines of each:

1)  Strong Ratio. (Controlled Creation & Appearance)  Obvious, sectioned and distinctive formation of patterns.  Strong, whether that is repetitive or weak or anything in-between, just a once again, numerous occurring event within a section.  My own desire would be old school, is to follow it and lose only my last wager when I was triggered by the presence of the ratio.

2)  Sound Ratio.  (Equally Orderly Response)  Everything happening in-between, the above and the below two ratios.

3)  Background Ratio. (Continuous Probability)  Swing to even out, not much longevity of anything, but necessary and always has to happen best defines by regression to the mean.  The most dangerous and hardest wagers to be successful on.   

[alrelax]

Sample of all 3 Ratios within the 'Sections and Turning Points' as I wrote about elsewhere:



[attach=1]

[alrelax]

Another sample from that infamous (absolutely great erection builder shoe that won $30k for me):


[attach=1]

[alrelax]

For the two members here I talked to on the phone today, here is the other thread that I go more into detail with and further examples of 'Sections', 'Turning Points' and 'Player Plateaus', etc.:

http://betselection.cc/alrelax's-blog/sections-and-turning-points/msg53355/#msg53355

[esoito]

A very thoughtful analysis, alrelax.

Given that it's based your extensive experience only the foolhardy would try to dismiss this without careful thought and solid justification.

[For those incapable of reading between the lines that's a nudge to responders to address the content and not the writer.]

Your perception of ratios is the catalyst for an idea [sorry -- one unrelated to baccarat  ] that I shall explore further.

Great thinking. 

[alrelax]

A very thoughtful analysis, alrelax.

Given that it's based your extensive experience only the foolhardy would try to dismiss this without careful thought and solid justification.

[For those incapable of reading between the lines that's a nudge to responders to address the content and not the writer.]

Your perception of ratios is the catalyst for an idea [sorry -- one unrelated to baccarat  ] that I shall explore further.

Great thinking. 

Thanks and I do appreciate your comments. I started this thread for this purpose on this subject in the baccarat  room. I actually only grasp this the other night when there was seven players followed by 6 Bankers followed by 6 or 7 players followed by 15 banks that virtually everybody at the table lost probably $40,000.  I all of a sudden got a very clear vision of the three-areas and they  are tangible that I mentioned that makes up the shoe almost always and sometimes are longer than each other and sometimes they interface together but they are there and they are what needs to be paid attention to.  I've related them to sections and turning points. 

[Lungyeh]

How anybody can lose money in these kinds of shoes is beyond me. In Asia, we would have taken the casino to the cleaners!

I think people who lose on these kinds of shoes are not baccarat players. They are probably Mathematicians or Statisticians and I suppose those two can be interchangeable!!! 😎😎

[Chimp]

How anybody can lose money in these kinds of shoes is beyond me. In Asia, we would have taken the casino to the cleaners!

I think people who lose on these kinds of shoes are not baccarat players. They are probably Mathematicians or Statisticians and I suppose those two can be interchangeable!!! 😎😎

Sure these players playing this style will take the casino to the cleaners with this shoe.  I see it all the time.  Only problem is, when it becomes a hybrid when the trend changes.  I know a guy that rakes in 40-80K in these types of shoe.  Then the casino takes player like him to the morgue.

I have come across many people who claims they know how to recognize these types of shoe and I believe the casino took them to the morgue because after a decade of playing these player are no where to be seen.

[Lungyeh]

What a good description Chimp! Casino taking them to the morgue! How true...

[marinetech]

hindsight is great. when playing in the moment and people saying they would have bet 5k here or 10k there. well its easy to say that before you actually do it. when you see 2 players or banks in a row, its easy in hindsight see it go to 15 and be like yes i would have killed it!

when you see 2 in a row now and you hammer it and it breaks off your like wtf. 99.9% i believe that.....

[alrelax]

hindsight is great. when playing in the moment and people saying they would have bet 5k here or 10k there. well its easy to say that before you actually do it. when you see 2 players or banks in a row, its easy in hindsight see it go to 15 and be like yes i would have killed it!

when you see 2 in a row now and you hammer it and it breaks off your like wtf. 99.9% i believe that.....

Hindsight is hindsight and might  work  and might not work. If you think the game is easy as you already found out it's not just go and do what you think with wagering the second one and pouncing on it. but you will not cash out and win and that much I guarantee you. Your mind will wander and your hand will not cooperate and as long as you got chips in front of you, it's going to be a dangerous situation at the baccarat table.

There structured ways to play that so few do.  Most have no idea.  But hey that second line wager is always there, pound on it,  see what happens after a while, 

[Chimp]

hindsight is great. when playing in the moment and people saying they would have bet 5k here or 10k there. well its easy to say that before you actually do it. when you see 2 players or banks in a row, its easy in hindsight see it go to 15 and be like yes i would have killed it!

when you see 2 in a row now and you hammer it and it breaks off your like wtf. 99.9% i believe that.....

That's exactly how it happens.  I used to get pissed when someone walks by a table and would say I don't know how you people lose in such a good shoe.  I stop getting mad and finally point out that there is an empty seat and invite them to sit down.  Not only does the person lose, but that person is ALWAYS the first person to lose all their money and get up first.  I have done this many times.  More than not, the trend ends.  The reason the person loses all his/her bankroll first is the need to prove that they can win in such a shoe.  I see how often a person's ego will cause them to lose.  After just insulting everyone at the table, they have something to prove.  Every time, we all get a good laugh out of it when the person walks away.  Once it happened to two person for the same shoe.

I did almost got in a fight with someone for doing this.  The guy was flat betting table minimum and would hit about 90-95% during that stretch.  He was telling everyone how to bet.  Everyone at the table was all pissed, myself included.  So I decided to teach this guy a lesson.  Told him to bet more.  He claims that he didn't bring a lot of money.  I directed him to the ATM.  He quiets.  The next hand came and everyone was on my side and he was the only one on the other side.  A very hot lady came and caught his attention.  He tells her to bet with him.  Initially she did but for some reason she went with us.  Card opens 8 for him with 3 cards.  Everyone was getting pissed from his reaction and we opened 9.  He got pissed.  Some guy on the table said, "you win some, you lose some."  For reason he didn't get mad at the other guy.  He directed his anger at me even though I didn't say anything for that hand.  Knowing that he was upset, I calmly and slowly got him even angrier.  He was taller and bigger but I know there is no difference in weight.  More words were exchanged and we were only inches apart.  I was waiting for him to throw the first punch.  The dealer got scared and called the floor over and the floor eventually called security over.  Dealer didn't want to take sides but the people that were on the table earlier came back for my defense.  Didn't help.  We were both told to leave.

[alrelax]

Great shoes are won together easier by all and lost more frequently by so many while the others win so minimal.  Yet because of personality At the table, our minds work a different way.  You can hurt yourself or profit by playing with or against other players. But when you lose sight of the real game with the shoe, that is the start of your problems. 

[alrelax]

hindsight is great. when playing in the moment and people saying they would have bet 5k here or 10k there. well its easy to say that before you actually do it. when you see 2 players or banks in a row, its easy in hindsight see it go to 15 and be like yes i would have killed it!

when you see 2 in a row now and you hammer it and it breaks off your like wtf. 99.9% i believe that.....

There is a huge difference in players that are 'Hindsight' players and skilled players.  I know that sounds harsh and biased, but it is the realty of baccarat and a great comparison would be sports.  I am leaving pro's out of it, i don't believe their is any definition or difference between a skilled player and a pro player.  Just some people choose to go pro and some did not, being a pro does not boast or add anything to your skill level in anyway. 

[Chimp]

There is a huge difference in players that are 'Hindsight' players and skilled players.  I know that sounds harsh and biased, but t is the realty of baccarat and a great comparison would be sports.  I am leaving pro's out of it, i don't believe their is any definition or difference between a skilled player and a pro player.  Just some people choose to go pro and some did not, being a pro does not boast or add anything to your skill level in anyway.

A better player will not lose everything going against a trend.  I'm not sure if there is a skill player.   Unless you have a mechanical betting system, anyone guessing is a "hindsight" player.  True, going pro does not add anything.  It doesn't mean you are a better player either.  Someone playing and losing every single day is considered a pro.