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[alrelax]

Overpowering the Shoe!

Very possible, but it is entirely up to the players and these days, more so than ever before--the players seemingly rather challenge each other than play 'old school', sad buy extremely factual.

I wrote about it a while back.  It is there, it is real and some of the best and most experienced old-school players know it.

Been there and done it many times, but it takes others and everyone at the table in order to have it come about. 

It is possible, but it takes perfect camaraderie, extreme motivation and energy-energy and energy.  Also complete trust and most of all, (hard as hell to control except for picking your properties to play at) is others staying away that have that ingrained and horrible "off-the-wall" thought process which I finally got it defined.  That thought process these people bring to the table is, "Hey, they are winning over there--I will just bet opposite of them or at least the largest of them totaled and then give them that 'you are stupid look' when I win and kill their mojo and the table" personality. 

If you think you can come in a game, give the stink eye, laugh when you killed the mojo, and then prosper by attempting to make camaraderie with the already existing players, think again. It doesn't work that way.

[Lungyeh]

I got talking with an old Indian man, probably in his 60s about a year ago. Told me he has lost a fortune, a few hundred thousand maybe a million. That he has now changed his game to slowly recover. I bump into him regularly and watch him play with interest.

He walks around and identifies a table with a lucky streaky winner and ploughs himself into a seat and takes a few bets following the table leader. Each bet is S$500-1,000. Told me he makes 5-10k a day and then goes home. In less than a year, he is now betting S$10-20,000 per bet following the same strategy! Good for him! Patience pays.

Understand over at the Resorts World Casino there is a guy who has made S$2mil in 2 years betting S$2-3k per hand finding a boisterous table and betting following the table leader.

Over in Asia, the camaraderie is stronger with the crowd piling on same bets with a table leader. Seldom do they go against. If they are in disagreement with the choice, most just withhold their bets. But yes, once awhile I see some A-H betting $500 against everybody else who have bets ranging up to $50,000. Its not in my personality to do that but I accept that it takes all kinds to make up the world....

[alrelax]

Yes Lungyeh, it is all possible in baccarat, the losing and the winning.  I have always said, repeatedly--"it is the easiest game to win and lose at" and most people take that with that unintelligent proverbial grain-of-salt! 

In baccarat, I only wish as a whole, the old-school way of playing would return.  But I don't see that happening in the long run.  The players are far more independent and internet 'advised' by commercial gambling systems and 'experts' usually always selling something. 

When a new player sits down and talks his talk, especially a younger person--he or she really does attract many other inexperienced players.  I am not here to psycho-analyze all of that.  However, I played throughout the 80's and 90's and it was nothing like it is today. 

The losing and the winning was all there.  The winning it all back with patience and slowing down was also all there.  What wasn't all there, was the fierce attitudes, the 'I know what I am doing as I played this game for a few months now', and all the anti-friendly and competitiveness most all the players have amongst themselves. 

Here are three examples.  And it is really against my better judgment to put it up here, but for you and for Ted009 I will.

1):  I was at Caesar's in Vegas and I was at a midi-Macau table playing by myself.  A favorite dealer and my wife was sitting there.  I was winning and I mean mad-winning.  Like up well over $100k.  Wife even put 3-$25k chips off the side for a new Escalade SUV (which we ultimately did go purchase that evening).  I was on a heater, a true heater.  I was yelling and screaming and having a great time of course.  My wife was all reserved and sitting there and high fiving and telling me to stack it up and stack it up, etc.  The dealer, an Asian guy who we really like.  Was totally amazed at how I was playing most every hand and winning.  And he dealt the game for well over 20 years also.  I was probably up around $125k if not more.  I have a habit of coloring up when I get to certain points.  Like if I am on a heater and took all the dealer's black chips, I will then color up and give most back to him, etc.  I don't color up all the winning and play only with my buy-in (buy-in NOT bankroll).  I have certain points and also my 1/3rd money-management thing I do employ, most can't figure out at the table.  So every time I get a huge hand like winning with a natural 9 over a natural 8 or a tie or something, I am smacking the table and yelling.  All normal.  This one lady would keep coming over from her reserved table and watch, then when I went in large she would opposite me of course.  And stand there, all pungent and snotty.  The dealer knew her and didn't like what she was doing either.  Would kill my mojo.  I would even turn to her and say, 'I don't do this poo-poo to you do I"?  She never batted an eyelash, stood there and tried to win a little and knock me out.  Yes, no-one changes the cards, not for anything.  But it is the clear mojo, the motivation, the high and the guts to go with your feelings.  Sorry, so many of you will berate me for saying that, but I have played this game long enough to develop my own style.  And that is, playing with the people rather than against them.  "I have won far more money playing in complete camaraderie then I would have if I played those winning shoes/tables by myself or against others, far more""! If I can't figure it out or get on a roll, I don't try to win $500 or $2,000 off someone else bad luck or stupidity.  I asked her several times if she wanted to sit down and play, and never an answer.  Only a head shake no.  Whatever.  If I had a table full of people and we had some camaraderie, that was a few hundred thousand dollar shoe if not a hell of a lot more for myself.  She kept doing this like 10 times and into the next shoe.  It was in the late afternoon so the high limit room was not busy at all.  I got frustrated and calmed down and kept winning.  My wife got pissed at me and I just felt the walls closing in and not thinking clear at all.  I found myself wagering with the thought, well I really feel this so I will wager the opposite.  And then, what I originally thought, of course prevailed. I think we left that table with right at $100k, maybe a tad bit under.

#2):  I was at Mohegan Sun and it was late at night.  Full table.  One of those big tables, 14 players with the 3 dealers.  I was in Atlantic City and a snow storm came.  Most of the people left the casino and headed home.  I had a room and was too tired to drive back home to North Jersey.  So I crashed.  A little bit after I just fell asleep, someone called me that was playing up at Mohegan Sun.  Told me the table were ultra hot and to get up there.  So I packed and checked out within minutes of course and headed up.  It took me over 6 hours to make the 4 hour or so trip.  When I got there, they all had their heads down in their hands and their was that in-fighting going on.  I bought in with $12k and they willingly passed the shoe to me.  I knew most of the people and I brought life to the table.  If you never played big table baccarat where the shoe travels from player to player and the players deal the game, you probably will not understand the camaraderie and karma that can certainly over power the shoe. There was no camaraderie there and I proceeded to bang out a whole bunch of banks.  Then I passed the shoe with the first player that I made.  Everyone was haphazard and there was visible in-fighting and arguments.  Anyway, whatever side I wagered on I was winning.  The personality of the other players was horrible and the aura in the air was so thick--one cut certainly slice it with a knife.  That kind of aura causes players to in-fight and attempt to show another up and who certainly is a better baccarat player.  The whole focus moves away from taking the casinos money to knocking another player out.  I remember like I said, I was winning and so was one other person.  I tried my best to get everyone going as we have so many times before.  They all resisted and seemed to be suspended in a lull of types.  I knew most of the players and this was not the norm, really.  Most of their heads were well into their hands and either losing or just pushing money back and forth. I continued to win and I got up over $100k easily of win money, but they all resisted and this was not the norm back a few years ago, especially at a big table. I distinctly remember that, the other players resisted so blatantly and so obnoxious it was ugly and not fun.  You have to remember, lots of these players--we all knew each other from NYC in one form or another.  We were not strangers.  I of course started to cut me own wagers down but was still winning.  I gave some back but still stayed up around the $100k mark.  To me, that is the biggest frustrating thing is wagering less than you would with co-camaraderie and a real friendly table.  Then the others are like, 'you jerk--your really a jerk for cutting your wagers down--you are winning'.  Then eventually they all started to follow and of course the mojo and all the good sections or luck or whatever you want to call it--was over and done.  Yes, I still won and won good, but it was another one of those series of a couple to 3 shoes that should have produced 10 to 20 to 40 times what I took it for.   

I am not just referring to long streaks or pure alternating chop, I am referring to the average shoe with it all mixed.  Anything I can won in baccarat, no matter the pattern/trend or non-pattern, etc.  Players band together and get through it and prosper.  Kind of like finding your way through the woods or swamp when no one knows anything versus one person with limited sight and creativity, etc. 

#3): The following was contained in an older post of mine--I will just re-post that.  IMO, they are all great examples of camaraderie at a table or 'missed big-time camaraderie' at the table, like in the example of Super bowl part day @ The Bellagio in 2011.  Here they are:

Of My Most Boss Games of Baccarat with Details:

NOTE: In my beginning years of gambling, I would definitely be inclined only to remember the highest winning shoes as memorable shoes/trips. As time passes, it is more about uniqueness and 'stand-out-ability' with the most memorable. With that said, here are mine anyways:


3 from the 90's and 1 from 2011.

The last one first. 2011 @ The Bellagio, very late afternoon waiting on the VIP Super bowl Party they have in their ballroom for invited guests. Played one shoe of Midi Bac and won about $50k. Then we went to the unintelligent beyond boring SuperBowl party in the ballroom to watch 2 teams I couldn't give 2-hoots about, Steelers and Packers. The following two shoes at that same Bac table were killer shoes for the players and I remember to this day Johnny F. and the dealer as well, both telling me how 2 players each took them for $200k and $300k respectively. I have said for a long time that good shoes comes in groups of 3, but I got caught up in the events, and lord I hate doing that, I am a gambler and really don't go for the shows and events, sure I go to some of them but not as the primary reason for going to Vegas, I still regret not staying at that table. I have played numerous times where I arrived after all the great shoes were done or I left early, etc. But never played 1 of three great easy shoes where it was possible to rake in hundreds of thousands.  NOTE:  A lot of my brother in laws and their GF's were there as well watching, one of my brother in laws was playing with a small buy-in and prospered maybe $10k or so.  The other two players are well-known members of another message board and in fact one of them is the owner/Admin of a gambling board.  He was resisting us in the 'mojo' of the shoe and although we all won that shoe, it was a clear forfeited couple hundred thousand dollar easy win. 

The next 3 are the happy ones.

The 80's and 90's to me were more fun in Atlantic City because of the type of players. Vegas had more California and west coast players as the majority and they tend to be much quieter and love to subscribe to that 'heads in the hands' syndrome at the tables. On the other hand, before 9/11 and of course before 2008 economy crash, Atlantic City had the boisterous, loud, continuous high-fiving/backslapping players that egged on the camaraderie beyond belief. Generally, the quieter times and less boisterous ones in Atlantic City was about what Vegas was generally like the majority of the times.

First time playing at Bally's Grand after the Steve Wynn days of his first casino owned by himself, The Golden Nugget. I was playing the carnival game '3-Handed Blackjack' on the main floor where you would keep your first card for the following two hands. I was up about $25k to $30k or so and my x-wife's friend grabs me by the arm and yanks me away. She brings me to the big baccarat table in the HL pit there. This is the time when there was no Midi or Macau style, only 14 seat/3 dealer big tables or mini bac on the main floor. I sit down next to her and her two sisters and there other friends all taking up one side of the table. I begin winning and whatever I touched won. The whole table, full with 14 players, begins to follow. 1/2 Asians and 1/2 White people. Most know each other and most of the dealers are all on first name basis with almost everyone. Well over $100k up after a shoe or two. We ripped up cards, threw cards out onto the main casino floor, all kinds of 'normal' bac stuff that unless you played during those times, you really have no idea. The dealers back then rarely made mistakes if ever. All shoes were hand shuffled between games taking at least 20-25 mins between shoes. Then we all ran to the main floor mini table and the floor people knew us and we were allowed to wager $100/$10k or whatever our max limit was in the HL at the big table. The regular players at mini were only allowed $25/$2,500. We would all group up and let 2 or 3 players squeeze in and hand that player from the big table our wagers for the hand. It was so loud and complex with the wagers, at least 2 if not 3 floor people would come running over when we all hit the couple of mini tables during the big table shuffles. It was fun. Once in awhile one of us would reach over and grab a card from the dealer before they turned it and we would squeeze it. The floor people would shake their heads, as then the cards would have to be changed after the shoe of course. But no one got upset, we were the players, the customers, unlike today's atmosphere. When the whole side was on one side and it lost and the results looked 'not so obvious' some of the dealers would do the wrong pay-out so quick if the floor people were not watching, you could never catch it. Like if the Players had a 6 for a 3rd card and the Banker was sitting with 6 for the first two cards, say the Banker drew a seven or a 9, the dealer would glimpse at the floor and if they were not making eye contact, a lighting fast payout to the Banker would happen. It was just the way it was occasionally and no one ever got caught. This is before the pits had the regular lounges and food, the Butlers from the private floor were called if we requested and they would go to the boardwalk and bring back 6 or 10 boxes of pizza pies and calzones from a small place on the boardwalk just north of the Grand there. But the camaraderie and the people made the scene by far and there was never a lack of it. I played here numerous times when it was Steve Wynn's joint, The Golden Nugget and after it went to Bally's I left there for the Trop/Tropicana, The Claridge, The Taj, and Caesar's to play bac. After that night I was a regular playing back at The Grand most weekends.

The next one was at The Tropicana in Atlantic City also. This is when the HL was all the way in the back of the place, I believe it would have been the west end of the casino. It was like an alcove set-up. The one big bac table they had was in the rear corner of the room. It was a full table one night. As quite frequently one side (7) players would wind up wagering the opposite side wager's than the other end of the table. A massive run came and the guy next to me had the shoe to my left (I would get the shoe next to deal). After about 3 or 4 hands he is way over confident as most of us were back then when the shoe traveled around the table. He was standing up and motioning for everyone to wager Banker. Like a Crazy Eddie (New Jersey/NYC electronic store chain-very infamous famous) commercial, exactly, the guy was actually yelling and screaming for everyone to get on the Banker. His arms waving widely, egging each and everyone to wager Banker, really getting into it. Real old school bac action and fun. (for those of you who have no idea who Crazy Eddie was, Google him and read)

The guy makes a couple or a few more Bankers, we are all wagering Pumpkins/Orange and up I think. Most of us are wagering up $5k to $10k a hand. I think there was only two hold out other players wagering on Players at this time. One was to the guy's left in seat 1 and the Banker was in seat 2 and I was in seat 3. The guy in seat 1 returns a Natural 8. The guy quickly looks at his two cards and they are both pip 4 liners. I stuck my head over and he did not see if they were 10's or not and there was another couple of players that jumped up and ran over to his back as well. The guy that retuned the players natural is all smiles and shrugging his shoulders, I can still see it clearly to this very day. The guy with the bank breaks out singing the old "Stealers Wheel" song, 'Stuck in the Middle With You'. Clearly and loudly breaks out in perfect harmony, "Clowns to the left of me and jokers to the right....I don't know why I came here tonight....I got the feeling something ain't right.....Clowns to the left of me and jokers to the right...Stuck in the middle with you". The guy slams down a pip 10 card. After a good 20 seconds or more, the guy breaks back out "You're proud that you're a self made man, and your friends they all come crawlin, slap you on the back and they say"...... he looks over at the guy with the Natural 8 and in a long drawn out verse, says "nine" and slams down the 9.

The guy with the shoe continues, makes a few more bankers, probably up to around 9 or 10 by now. Gets up even a few more, probably around 15 or so. Everyone is on the Banker now of course. (LOL, these days most would be playing for the inevitable cut missing it all, LOL!) The guy's with his wife who is now standing behind him, we are all up easily well over $100k, house down well over 1 million, suits everywhere, hosts, HL manager, casino manager, others, security hanging around, etc., the guy and his wife both break out singing "That's the Way I Like It" by KC and the Sunshine Band. Perfect lyrics perfect tone! They both keep it up until he is done with his banker run, I think it was just under 20 or maybe 20 with the ties.

Runner up 4th, almost put it as third but the others beat it out. I think of this one all the time. At Caesar's in Atlantic City also. Mid 90's. Asian/Chinese New Year. Popped in Caesar's from another property there in AC. The HL was pretty packed. Seemed all the people were pretty much their own crowd. In the original high limit room, not the later side step up area with the Asian games. This was the big tables, smack in the middle of the room. Most all looked Filipino ethnicity out of the Asian that were seated. They just started a shoe and I grab the one seat that was open. I learned that they were pretty much winning and following their one 'leader' of sorts. Everyone was on the same side and I mean everyone, every time. They would wager and then sing a song, I had no idea what they heck it was. Almost every hand every one was winning. The 'leader' would wager first, every one followed. They would even switch sides after wagering before the cards came out and of course, they were right. The shoe took a phenomenal 4 to 5 hours I remember, The house lost millions that day. Another great game that I remember.

Those are the shoes and trips I will never forget, my top four. There were plenty of other great ones, but those are in my fore-front when I think about the past.