Quote from: Sputnik on May 04, 2013, 06:46:26 AM
-

I have a question.

I been thinking about looking into John Patrick's way.
Playing against 9 high reds, using low and black.

That way i can see a reason why you would play more then one even money position.
But i don't understand the reason why you would play all six even money position.

Can it be you try to take advantage out of equilibrium's when you aim for triple position?

Sputnik


What I would like to stress what I said earlier is this is not a system. It's a framework. The reason I picked three even chances, is not to break equilibrium, but to create a bet which provides percentage returns in a percentage game. Also, we need to take the other concepts into consideration. Taking 3 even chances alone in isolation will not get us anywhere. 


If played as a system, this will be an absolute bonker. The advice as I said in the start of thread to anyone is to understand concepts and evolve a framework which will suit the play following the table. I have decided to take a  90 session challenge to show how to use this framework.  Will post videos starting with a 100 unit bankroll and see how far we go either at the end of 90 sessions or the evaporation of 100 unit br whichever is earlier. 


Wish me good!

Quote from: Bayes on May 04, 2013, 07:54:10 AM

If you're betting all 3 EC's at the same time your variance is going to be 3 times what it would be betting on a single EC, so you should triple the bank you have budgeted for 1 if you're going to bet 3. While all 3 EC's may not trend together very often or for long, it will happen often enough for you to need those extra banks.


But I like your "cyclic" approach. 

Can't agree more with you! But based on my experience I believe it doesn't happen enuf   enough    if  you adopt a proper inter and intra session mm to need extra banks.  This is why I have decided to take a 90 session challenge.  Who knows it might tank!  But I have a feeling it won't, because I have done this earlier. 

I think I getting the idea of  your "Framework" concept.


The central idea, (as I see it) is knowing at any one time, what the Win/Loss registry is on the wheel  your playing at, and therefore changing  your betting strategy to suit that changing environment.


The Triple Shooter, was just an example of how to apply the Win/Loss notation?


Tell me if I'm getting somewhere along this long road? 

Quote from: Chrisbis on May 07, 2013, 12:01:24 PM
The central idea, (as I see it) is knowing at any one time, what the Win/Loss registry is on the wheel your playing at, and therefore changing your betting strategy to suit that changing environment.

Absolutely Chris, the central idea is to keep things simple (LW register), chose the strategy best suiting the environment (in this case a cycle progression) and follow what is happening. As promised, I have started working on the videos and will post as soon as am ready.

Initial set up
Triple shooter - Starting brief

Session 1. Hopefully, further sessions will be quick and i will try to summarize, if there is nothing to explain.

Triple shooter - Session 1

Excellent video making GGpaps. 


Question.


At the end of session 1, in  your default sheet, shouldn't the Imaginary BR of 100 be marked somehow as being used?

Thanks for the video explanations, gramps...
Which way would you advise playing the 3 EC then on the r.n.g. roulette? The way you showed us originally or the way shown in the video (against the wheel)??
How do you decide which to follow?
Thanks,
A.

Chris,

Essentially I had two physical bankrolls of 100 unit each and 18 imaginary bankrolls of 100 unit each before the start of the session. This totals up to 2000 units.

Now before the session starts I take 2 units as erosion fund. This erosion fund I will directly deposit into my pocket. I am not going to touch this 2 unit for playing at all. So whatever happens, the casino is going to take only 98 units from me. That leaves us with 1998 units (198 physical units and 1800 imaginary units).

Now at the end of the session, I have +14 units. I take 50% of this into my pocket, which the casino is not going to get their hands on. So my pocket strength is now 9 units (2 unit from erosion fund 7 units from session 1). After pocketting it, we are left with 7 units. We take 50% of this remaining rounded to the next highest whole unit into our playing BR. 50% of 7 units rounded off is 4 units, which will go into our playing bank roll. Our playing bankroll was 98, it becomes 102 now. That leaves us with 3 units, which we get into a new Bankroll called cushion BR.

So at the end of the session our bankrolls look like this.
Physical playing bank roll - 102 units
Physical recovery bank roll - 100 units
Imaginary bank roll - 1800 units (18 bankrolls of 100 unit each)
Cushion bank roll - 3 units
Pocket - 9 units.

Hope this clarifies your question. I will make things clearer on why am doing what i am doing as we get into more sessions, as it is easier to explain things as it happens rather than explaining it upfront. But essentially the concept revolves around a single motto "Make it as difficult as possible for the casino to get THEIR hands on YOUR money". Not to deviate from the current thread, I will stop this here and probably some other time walkthrough various MM concepts and share what works for me and the framework around it, so that one can define one of their own that suits them.
P.S. Thanks Chris for pointing the mistake. Typo corrected and your post deleted

Quote from: Atlantis on May 07, 2013, 02:59:03 PM
Thanks for the video explanations, gramps...
Which way would you advise playing the 3 EC then on the r.n.g. roulette? The way you showed us originally or the way shown in the video (against the wheel)??
How do you decide which to follow?
Thanks,
A.

A,
I will stop short of recommending this, as my knowledge on RNG casino is very limited to what i have seen today. I know there are other experts on this forum, who have a sea of experience who can comment better on this.

What i can tell you is my take from real life casino. I would generally read a couple of tables for 10-15 spins for either following the wheel or going against the wheel. Depending on which one comes on top, i follow that method. Now once we have decided, it is again not set in stone. I might decide to change mid-session into either following or against depending on what is happening in the table. Sometimes, I decide upfront before getting into a table that i will alternate every spin or every set of 5 spins or every 1,2,3 spins. If I decide to alternate this every 1,2,3 spins, I will play following the wheel for first spin, against the wheel for spin number 2 and 3 and following the wheel for spin numbers 4,5 and 6. This alternation is another attempt at breaking any trend or experienced dealers reading your framework and reacting to limit your gains. (Or my take on beating randomness with randomness if I can call it that way:) ). that's why i said this is not a system and you have to adapt based on what's happening within the rules of the framework. Some may say its all a fallacy and doesn't matter whether you follow or play against, but hey the whole roulette game is based on fallacy as the greatest mathematician in Einstein couldnt break it!

Having said that, not changing/adapting is not going to get you into a deep well as long as you follow disciplined MM. Its just that you will not be able to maximize your profit or limit your losses and hence will take a longer time to grow your bank roll.  So lets say i might double my playing bankroll in 8-10 sessions without adapting to what is happening in the table as opposed to only 3-4 sessions while you are able to constantly adapt to what is happening.

Thanks GreatGrampa. I agree about being flexible and adapting to changing circumstances. In my experience, usually when I switch after losses that is the point when the results decide to change too and I get more losses...
Anyhow what do you think of this follow-the-wheel approach below which ALWAYS bets on the predominating sides of an EC over the last THREE spins instead of each SINGLE spin........?

Track the EC results of the last 3 numbers.

R/B     E/O    H/L

Then FLATBET for each spin the side of the EC which predominates out of the LAST 3 VERTICAL results in each column.

If flatbetting then the bet never changes:  1u-1u-1u each spin after the initial 3 recorded numbers.

Or you can use +1 cyclic progression as below (eg: after 5 results)

Remember take the side of the EC which dominates out of the last 3 vertical results (check after each spin)

Results are from a NOZERO session using cyclic betting

[reveal=Cyclic Progression]

BEH
BEL
BEL    first 3 numbers so bet BEL as they are the dominants in each column

REH   LWL   -1  NOW  BET BEL
REL   LWW +0 NOW BET REL
BOH   LLL   -3  NOW BET REH
ROH   WLW  -2   NOW BET ROH
ROL    WWL -1  NOW BET ROH ......Incr to 2
---------------------------------------------
ROL   WWL  +1   NOW BET ROL
BOL   LWW  +3   NOW BET ROL 
REH   WLL   +1   NOW BET ROL
BEL    LLW   -1  NOW BET BEL
BEL    WWW +5  NOW BET BEL....Decr to 1
---------------------------------------------
BEH    WWL  +6  NOW BET BEL
BEH    WWL  +7  NOW BET BEH
ROH   LLW    +6   NOW BET BEH
REL    LWL    +5   NOW BET REH
BEH    LWW   +6  NOW BET REH.....Stay at 1
--------------------------------------------
ROL    WLL    +5 NOW BET REH
BOL    LLL     +2  NOW BET BOL
BEH    WLL    +1   NOW BET BOL
ROH    LWL    +0   NOW BET BOH
BOH    WWW +3  NOW BET BOH......Incr to 2
----------------------------------------------
BEH    WLW   +5 NOW BET BOH
ROL     LWL    +3 NOW BET BOH
BOL    WWL   +5 NOW BET BOL
REH     LLL     -1   NOW BET BOL
ROL     LWW   +1 NOW BET ROL........Incr to 3
--------------------------------------------
BEL     LLW     -2  NOW BET ROL
BOL     LWW   +1 NOW BET REL
ROH     WLL    -2 NOW BET BOL
REH     LLL     -11 NOW BET BOL
ROL     LWW    -8 NOW BET ROH.......Incr to 4
----------------------------------------------
ROL     WWL   -4 NOW BET ROH
ROL     WWL   +0 NOW BET ROL
ROL     WWW  +12  NOW BET ROL
REL     WLW    +16 NOW BET ROL
REH     WLL     +12 NOW BET ROL......Decr to 1
-------------------------------------------------
BOH     LWL     +11 NOW BET REL
BEL      LWW   +12 NOW BET REH
REL      WWL   +13 NOW BET BEH
BOH     WLW    +14 NOW BET BEL
REH     LWL      +13 NOW BET BEL........Stay at 1
------------------------------------------------
REH     LWL       +12 NOW BET REH
REL     WWL     +13  NOW BET REH
ROL     WLW     +14 NOW BET REL
ROL     WLW     +15 NOW BET ROL
BEH     LLL        +12  NOW BET ROL........Incr to 2
------------------------------------------------
BOH     LWL       +10   NOW BET BOH
ROH     LWW     +12  NOW BET BOH
ROH     LWW     +14 NOW BET ROH
BOL     LWL       +12   NOW BET ROH
BEH     LLW       +10   NOW BET BOH......Incr to 3
-------------------------------------------------
ROH     LWW     +13  NOW BET BOH
BEL      WLL      +10  NOW BET BEH
BOH     WLW     +13  NOW BET BOH
ROH     LWW     +16 NOW BET BOH
ROH     LWW     +19 NOW BET ROH.........Decr to 1
--------------------------------------------------
ROH     WWW    +22 NOW BET ROH
ROH     WWW    +25 NOW BET ROH
BEL     LLL         +22 NOW BET ROH
BEH     LLW        +21   NOW BET BEH
ROL     LLL         +18  NOW BET BEL.........Incr to 2
--------------------------------------------------
BEL     WWW     +24 NOW BET BEL
ROH    LLL          +18 NOW BET ROL
BEL     LLW         +16   NOW BET BEL
REL     LWW        +18 NOW BET REL
BEL     LWW        +20 NOW BET BEL........Decr to 1
--------------------------------------------------
BEH     WWL       +21 NOW BET BEL
REL      LWW       +22  NOW BET BEL
BEH     WWL       +23 NOW BET REH
BEH     LWW       +24 NOW BET BEH
BOL     WLL         +23 NOW BET BEH....Stay at 1
--------------------------------------------------
ROL     LLL           +20 NOW BET BOL
ROL     LWW         +21  NOW BET ROL
BEH     LLL            +18  NOW BET ROL
ROH     WWL         +19 NOW BET ROH
ROH     WWW       +22 NOW BET ROH.... Incr to 2
-------------------------------------------------
ROL     WWL         +24 NOW BET ROH
BOH    LWW          +26  NOW BET ROH
ROL     WWL         +28  NOW BET ROL
ROH    WWL         +30  NOW BET ROH
REL    WLL           +28  NOW BET ROL........Decr to 1
---------------------------------------------------
REL    WLW          +29 NOW BET REL
BEH    LWL           +28 NOW BET REL
BEL    LWW          +29 NOW BET BEL
BOH   WLL            +28 NOW BET BEH
ROH   LLW            +27 NOW BET BOH.......Incr to 2
---------------------------------------------------
BOL    WWL          +29 NOW BET BOH
REL    LLL             +23 NOW BET ROL
BEL   LLW             +21 NOW BET BEL
BEL   WWW          +27 NOW BET BEL
BEL   WWW          +33 NOW BET BEL.......Decr to 1
---------------------------------------------------
BOL   WLW           +34 NOW BET BEL
BEL   WWW          +37 NOW BET BEL
REL   LWW            +38 NOW BET BEL
BOH  WLL             +37 NOW BET BEL
REL   LWW            +38 NOW BET REL.......Stay at 1
---------------------------------------------------

Profit = +38 units.

[/reveal]


Results flatbetting:

[reveal=FlatBetting]
BEH
BEL
BEL    first 3 numbers so bet BEL as they are the dominants

REH   -1
REL    +0
BOH   -3
ROH   -2
ROL    -1
ROL    +0
BOL    +1
REH    +0
BEL     -1
BEL     +2
BEH    +3
BEH    +4
ROH    +3
REL     +2
BEH     +3
ROL     +2
BOL     +1
BEH     +0
ROH     -1
BOH    +2
BEH    +3
ROL     +2
BOL     +3
REH     +0
ROL     +3
BEL     +2
BOL     +1
ROH     +0
REH     -3
ROL     -2
ROL     -1
ROL     +2
ROL     +5
REL     +6
REH     +5
BOH     +2
BEL      +3
REL      +2
BOH     +1
REH     +2
REH     +5
REL      +6
ROL      +5
ROL      +6
BEH      +3
BOH      +2
ROH      +3
ROH      +4
BOL      +3
BEH      +2
ROH      +3
BEL      +2
BOH     +3
ROH     +4
ROH     +5
ROH     +8
ROH     +11
BEL      +10
BEH      +9
ROL      +6
BEL       +9
ROH      +6
BEL       +5
REL       +6
BEL        +7
BEH       +8
REL        +9
BEH       +10
BEH       +13
BOL       +12
ROL       +9
ROL       +10
BEH       +7
ROH       +8
ROH       +11
ROL       +12
BOH       +13
ROL       +14
ROH       +15
REL       +14
REL        +15
BEH       +14
BEL        +15
BOH       +14
ROH       +13
BOL        +14
REL        +11
BEL        +10
BEL        +13
BEL        +16
BOL        +17
BEL        +20
REL        +21
BOH       +20
REL        +21

+21u profit
[/reveal]

You can still change and switch to bet the "passive" sides of the EC's (opposite the dominants) if you feel that it may help with this too.

A.

Fantastic implementation of the framework Atlantis!  You have done total justice to the name Triple shooter by evenly distributing your bets across all three even chances every spin, used the cyclic progression which best fits this framework and kept your bet selection simple.  What more can you ask from a fellow forumer.  Also you have clearly established hat contrary to popular belief you don't need 3 times your typical bank roll used for only one even chance as against 3 ECs. 

This is exactly why I wanted it be seen as a framework and not a system, as it opens up multitude of possibilities based on a simple set of rules. The more people contribute and adapt we will be able to figure out more variations and learn from each other. This is the exact reason I startes this thread.

Now what I shall do is, to use this variation blindly for my next session video as a tribute to Atlantis.  And I promise to do the same for anyone who is able to improvise the framework and provide a successful adaptation within the rules of the framework   

Great job Atlantis   You have led the way to open up a can of worms (or should I say a treasure chest). 

Nice explanation Atlantis, I think it's a great and elegant way to utilise all three ECs.
I think it demands further testing, especially if flat bets hold up
BW

Quote from: Buffalowizard on May 07, 2013, 09:15:27 PM
Nice explanation Atlantis, I think it's a great and elegant way to utilise all three ECs.
I think it demands further testing, especially if flat bets hold up
BW

We can do more tests, but based on what I have seen and the time spent on this framwork, flat betting will not hold up long or consistently in every session.

Who teach you manrique Great Granmpa?

Quote from: GGasoft on May 08, 2013, 07:50:20 AM
Who teach you manrique Great Granmpa?

Just through forums and info in net.  Happy to learn always if someone can.