So as usual, Ken gets into a heated discussion with casino staff.

Which is better (or neither) >>> You have 5 $1 chips. Betting all 5 on the 0,00,1,2,3 (pays 6:1) OR $1 each on the 0 00 1 2 3?

I ask floor/pit questions ALL THE TIME regarding the game, just to "test them", I guess I'm bored at times (lol). Was there on Friday, I asked floor what the H.A. is for 00 roulette (I play stupid), he said around 19%. WTF?

Ken

Hi Ken, always nice to read your posts. You certainly give 'em a twist!

Quote from: Mr J on October 26, 2014, 06:45:49 PMWhich is better (or neither) >>> You have 5 $1 chips. Betting all 5 on the 0,00,1,2,3 (pays 6:1) OR $1 each on the 0 00 1 2 3?

Betting on the straight-ups at regular 5.26% house edge, instead of 7.89% for the top line.

Quote from: Mr J on October 26, 2014, 06:45:49 PMI asked floor what the H.A. is for 00 roulette (I play stupid), he said around 19%. WTF?

Maybe he was referring to the "hold" for the casino he works at:

Quote from: wikipediaThe house edge should not be confused with the "hold". The hold is the average percentage of the money originally brought to the table that the player loses before he leaves—the actual "win" amount for the casino. The Casino Control Commission in Atlantic City releases a monthly report showing the win/hold amounts for each casino. The average win/hold for double zero wheels is between 21–30%, significantly more than the 5.26% house edge.

Cheers!
Vic

Great post Vic.

"The hold is the average percentage of the money originally brought to the table that the player loses before he leaves—the actual "win" amount for the casino" >>> Can you be more specific? Its bad enough I'm battling 5.26%, now I'm up against 21%? 

Ken

Hold – Refers to the amount the casino keeps as net gaming revenue. It is calculated by "Total in – amount paid out = hold." Typically, this is referred to in percentages. <<< Yeah, I also looked it up and am lost as hell.

So if I buy in for 1K, this means what?

Ken

Sorry for another post, trying to take this in and watch Packer game. So the 21% is not necessarily me, correct? Its all 00 roulette players as a whole?

I'm trying to grasp this. So lets say in a 24 hour period at one 00 table, the buy-ins are 20K in TOTAL. 5.26% is the minimum but up to (around) 21%?

Ken

  Hi Ken, rest assured it's all the same for you.

Theory vs Reality for the casino here.

House edge = their theoretical edge on the player, set in stone in the game's math.

Hold = What actually happens when players sit at the table.

Remember: as a real-life fluctuating value the hold can as well be NEGATIVE to the casino.

Your win, in fact, reflects as leaning the balance towards a negative hold to them unless other players make it up for you. Unlike the house edge (being fixed in stone), their hold in cold hard cash can suck for the shift in your table (I.e when you win big).

QuoteIt is calculated by “Total in – amount paid out = hold.” Typically, this is referred to in percentages.

Since the hold isn't calculated PER PLAYER, but PER TABLE, it doesn't apply to your $1000 bankroll unless you are the sole player in the shift.

If players bought-in for $10,000 and the casino paid $8000, then the casino held $2000 (their 20% hold).

For the casino, the calculation that matters the most when calculating the shift is this:

Cash in – Cash out = what we won (The Hold)

As simple as that.

Cheers!

Hmmm, interesting, thanks. So the players *CREATE* the hold (held).

If we all left the table while up even at 2% of our BR, the hold (held) would be quite small.

Ken

Quote from: Mr J on October 27, 2014, 03:02:33 AMSo the players *CREATE* the hold (held).

Indeed.

Expanding the concept of the casino hold in relation to the individual, as a real-life value it can even get to be a hold value of 100% for the player who continues to bet and bet until his bankroll is depleted. Session after session, like clockwork.

---

In the individual context, the average hold is most-related to the betting time and the number of “passes” the single player's bankroll makes (x times wagered, expected to be diminished at the rate of the house edge). The calculation is expected to be quite linear since there aren't other players to skew the overall values (as it happens when considering all players in a certain shift).

---

Still, since it is a value deriving from what happens in real-life, calculating casino's hold per player visit is an inexact science. With a $1000 buy-in, you can get up mad when losing $400 without ever winning anything (40% held) or you can leave the table with a happy $550 win (negative -55% hold for the casino).

It's easier for them to calculate it per shift.

Cheers!

Very interesting, I'll be book marking this page for future study. In a way, I (we) kind of already know this info but could not really do the math or know the lingo of it.

"What the ACTUAL take is for roulette".......Hmmm

Ken

Quote from: Mr J on October 27, 2014, 03:37:39 AM
Very interesting, I'll be book marking this page for future study. In a way, I (we) kind of already know this info but could not really do the math or know the lingo of it.

"What the ACTUAL take is for roulette".......Hmmm

Ken

either way (actual or theoretical) take, hold or edge...roulette still pays us the highest comps

so we got that goin' for us [smiley]aes/money.png[/smiley]

This "hold" subject is so damn interesting to me >> http://gaming.unlv.edu/reports/nv_table_hold.pdf

Ken

The average hold is lowering in Vegas. Players are "wising up" [smiley]giga/tombe.gif[/smiley] (or becoming tighter with their money!)

[attachimg=1]

Quote from: Mr J on October 27, 2014, 03:02:33 AMSo the players *CREATE* the hold

Seems they are creating less of it as the current tendency!

Since trends in "casino land" can cover really LONG spans, it would be interesting to see the same chart for a whole century.