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[alrelax]

First of all, wins are much tougher to handle and manage for most all players versus their losing sessions.

It's not easy to explain all in a thread on most forums, because the post will become lengthy, complex and take all sort of directions.  As well people will dismiss what the whole purpose of the thread is. But I'm going to attempt to put something out there, that I partially wrote about in the past and something that happened recently that's easy to explain.

Just a few days ago at a B&M casino, late at night after a full days work of 12 hours which was following a previous nights short play with a session win. So, I remove my original buy-in and returned to the casino with 'pure' win money having nothing to do with my bank roll or other personal pocket money. Which to me, gives me an extra advantage with deeper and clearer frame-of-mind when I start playing.

Having a complete clear frame-of-mind and a very positive motivational thought in my opinion are huge player advantage avenues. I was willing to risk the 'pure' win money I brought as a buy-in for the session. 

Okay, while playing you better realize plenty!  No matter if you are winning or losing.

How much can I win?
How much am I prepared to lose?
Can I recoup my current losses and get back positive?
I am winning, I don't want to give it back, should I stop?
Thinking, if I stop while winning, I can't win more.

While winning you are in many ways encouraged to continue, by yourself, other persons and even the casino personnel. Be careful and be conscious of EVERYTHING is all I can say, as it will give you 'fake' support. And that normally results in a loss of your winning an additional bankroll monies.

When you begin to lose while winning, it will most likely be more emotional, produce a greater level of frustration, causing you to blackout clear thought process quicker, and hamper your ability to clearly apply knowledge-experience and intuition in deeper amounts than if you did not already win.

When you have no more money, handling it is really no problem, no dilemma, you must quit, PERIOD.  But, winning is really the total opposite.

Anyone that has won sizable amounts at the table runs into a much more difficult decision making process. Play or quit. Countless people continue or stop and start again at another table or casino rather quickly. Doing so usually results in a complete loss of that win money as well as additional monies.

Most people do not subscribe to their own Levels and Plateaus or do they believe in withholding their buy-in and applying their win, to other outside things rather than gaming.  All they see is increased bets, longer play, larger winning, finally realizing they are conquering the game and similar false and very dangerous avenues they plan to adhere to.

All the gobbledygook on the Internet about applying wins to your bank roll, wagering larger and more aggressively is dead wrong. 100% wrong! It will hurt you and hurt you in very big ways.  Gaming, wagering, frame-of-mind and all the many other things that will determine your wins and losses and how you handle them, will not follow with larger bank rolls, larger bets, larger wins, 'type of plan'. At this time I can't put it into exact words but I will tell you, it will play on your decision making process the total opposite way of what you should be thinking and subscribing to.

Myself, I attempt to apply numerous M.M.M. traits, that I have written about. They work well for myself without any doubt. But discipline must still be applied and adhered to.  Which is very possible but not easy. Especially when the wins come and come nicely.

While I was winning the other night, after I doubled my buy-in, I did lose most of my win. Numerous thoughts of stopping were addressed and I went slightly outside of my norm of 1/3rd, 1/3rd, 1/3rd, application of my win money. I did apply my buy-in as current win money, what I normally do not do. But in this case I did it.

I began to win again and really took off with larger and more aggressive wins. I became more aggressive and that paid off nicely, which is generally against the norm and past experiences I might add. I got to the point where I easily won 5 to 6 times the amount of my buy-in. Once again, the thought process was only to play and keep playing. Should I have stopped when I won 5 to 6 times the buy-in amount I was at?  I can not honestly answer that.  After a bit, I once again began to lose, my win level dropped quickly down to the point I quadrupled my buy-in.  I stopped.  To slow myself down, I was actually getting up and texting a member from this forum.  Sending pics of the score board, etc. 

The dilemma i was in, I was very conscious of was, buy-in doubled, lost win and continued playing got me up to 5 to 6 times the buy-in. Lost 1 to 2 times the buy-in. Stop or continue, plenty of 'won' ammunition to possibly get up to double what I had in front of me. Meaning 9 or 10 or 11 times the buy-in or double the four times buy-in and win sitting in front of myself. I wanted to stop, but equally as much, I wanted to continue. I stopped and cashed out.

I could have continued and maybe won a lot more than what I did, but I know of the extreme frustration that could have set in if I continued to lose and I am not a close friend with that kind of frustration.

Frustration is dangerous and frustration makes good/great players do stupid things. Remember that.

I had a nice win. Now at least a week or more without going back. And when I do, it is back to my same Level and Plateau before that win, I am comfortable with and I know I am at. Anything else IMO, experience and knowledge, is not to my advantage in anyway whatsoever.

[alrelax]

I highly recommend from the bottom of my heart, the realization of what you are up against.  You will never smack the casino so hard that it actually hurts them!  You have to view each and every session of your play as a one time, brand new event without attempting recourse, revenge or make-up on any of your previous sessions where upon you lost.  It will only cloud your mind, your vision and put huge pressure and unrealistic goals you probably will not be able to meet.  You also have to have a certain amount of buy-in as a one-time event that is realistic as compared to your bankroll and a concrete refusal to buy-in a second time if you happened to lose the original buy-in amount.  That should be considered always 100% of the time, your stop loss figure.  This way when you win and apply something along the lines of my 1/3rd-1/3rd-1/3rd application of your win, within my Money Management Method system, your wins will far outnumber your losses, if you are truly playing with discipline and not vengeance.

[KungFuBac]

Hi alrelax. Good thoughts in above essays. I agree and find several of these topics critical for ones long-term success.

"...Okay, while playing you better realize plenty!  No matter if you are winning or losing.

How much can I win?
How much am I prepared to lose?
Can I recoup my current losses and get back positive?
I am winning, I don't want to give it back, should I stop?
Thinking, if I stop while winning, I can't win more.   ..."

Im of the belief almost everything in our game plan should be predetermined prior to our buyin(except total win or our trailing stop-win amount). We can't determine what our stop-win amount is until we hit our high or total win for the session.

Alrelax example above where he won 500%+ of buyin(how much he was willing to risk for a potential loss). He didn't have a goal of "I shall win 500% of buyin, or nothing". Nor did he know what his hit rate would be this high. He let the Ws come to him.

Since he won 500% I doubt if his predetermined wagering regime was "I shall wager a $25 continuous flat bet". Nothing wrong with a flat bet(Im just saying we should use a reasonable /realistic wagering amount and betting regime that give us the best opportunity to hit our >=target win(whatever that may be).

Limiting the upper end is limiting the volatility. We need volatility to win. The casino controls our lower end (buyin loss). It is to our benefit to only allow them to win only one(1) buyin per bad shoe or session. We can (or at least have the potential) to win far more than our buyin, prior to losing said buyin in our very good sessions.

How much can I win?
How much am I prepared to lose?

Furthermore, we should have a very precise bet size to buyin to bankroll predetermined. Most other variables are a f(x) of these choices.
I also believe our preferred wagering regime should be predetermined. Each and every tier or step or dollar amount, with exact precision.

In other words if we want to win an amount equal to our buyin we should design a plan to target that. If we want to 20% of buyin then we should design a plan to target that.
If we want to win X units we should design a plan to precisely target that (X units),....etc

Im not saying we shouldnt have a minimum win goal(Im saying we shouldnt stop prematurely after a winning streak "unless we have hit our predetermined win goal" and that win goal IMO should not be limited and be >=Win goal).
 
Winning streaks (and their duration) are a phenomenon within themselves that I think are worthy of further study. What I don't know is when these W streaks will occur and when they will cease (and they certainly will). Its just we don't know their duration any more when in the middle of one than we did prior to sitting down at the table.

The casino has already determined the range for much of what we want to accomplish.
For example: $50min--$2000Max. This limits what we should predetermine in our wagering regime, win goals, loss limits,...etc.

Bottomline: Plan your play and play your plan. Just make sure we do it with maximum intentions, precision, and consistency.


More later on the above topics,

[KungFuBac]

alrelax above:

"...I began to win again and really took off with larger and more aggressive wins. I became more aggressive and that paid off nicely, which is generally against the norm and past experiences I might add. I got to the point where I easily won 5 to 6 times the amount of my buy-in. Once again, the thought process was only to play and keep playing. Should I have stopped when I won 5 to 6 times the buy-in amount I was at?  I can not honestly answer that.  After a bit, I once again began to lose, my win level dropped quickly down to the point I quadrupled my buy-in.  I stopped.  To slow myself down, I was actually getting up and texting a member from this forum.  Sending pics of the score board, etc.

I probably would have colored up earlier(and missed the 500%+ buyin. I like to look at my buyin as my main >= win goal(not neccessarily per shoe but across that session. For example if I bought in for $2k and had won $2500, I look at the $500 (or maybe 3 base unit wagers) as what I am willing to give back before settling up(dispersing winmonie$ to their respective stacks). This is when my buyin is brand new(meaning in hasnt produced anything yet as I need to replace it to be even. The key IMO is that whatever one chooses for a MMM  we should do it consistently. Most all decisions will reduce to Fear vs Greed and how detached(or attached) we are to the money in our win stack. Fear is the stronger determinant in my opinion.


The dilemma i was in, I was very conscious of was, buy-in doubled, lost win and continued playing got me up to 5 to 6 times the buy-in. Lost 1 to 2 times the buy-in. Stop or continue, plenty of 'won' ammunition to possibly get up to double what I had in front of me. Meaning 9 or 10 or 11 times the buy-in or double the four times buy-in and win sitting in front of myself. I wanted to stop, but equally as much, I wanted to continue. I stopped and cashed out. ...".

The mistake I see with many players , e.g., Buyin for $2k, win $3K-$4K wagering a base unit of $50 , parlaying a few times, and pulling down at the perfect moment. Then once they have that $3-4K W in front of them they exercise -0- MMM and immediately up their base unit to say $200 and give it all back plus most of original $2k buyin,  with only the slightest of losing streaks. This obviously creates a great opportunity for the casino as they won their temporary loss back + the buyin on fewer tries than their(cas) initial loss streak.
My premise is that it is important that we exercise consistency in most all that we do.

*A perfect example of the above was at a session last week (cas has $50--$2k min/max). A player buys in for approx $1500, starts wagering $50 here and there, bonus bets(T,f7,p8), does a few presses, hits a couple bonus bets, and now has $3500 in front of him. He colors up and Im thinking "good for him".
He comes back to the table in about 15mins and now buys in with $2k, and wagers three $500 wagers along with some bonus bets,  and loses all of them/busts. He immediately starts verbalizing "how stupid am I", "damn it I knew I should have left",...etc.
Nothing wrong with playing another shoe(s) or session. Its just my main thesis is that we should not win our win money more than once. In other words exercise some method of MMM on a consistent basis so we don't "re play" 100% of our win money back through the casino machine. We need something to show for our Ws: Gold or silver coin, new watch, new shoes, pay bills,car tires,...etc. So when that $2000 buyin is separated from us we do have something to show for it.

The casino doesn't take their win money(our $2k buyin) and go buy $2000 more wooden chips. They do invest some back into the casino but also pay utility bills, mortgage , upgrades to building, company cars, outside investments, ...etc.
We should do the same with some of our won monies.


Continued Success To All,

[alrelax]

KFB, great input, thanks,

I will comment and explain my playing decisions further tonight. 

Alrelax