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Offline Johno-Egalite

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Is Roulette a Fair Game?
« on: May 29, 2019, 11:59:41 am »
My personal experience with the ball and wheel game.

Where to begin?  What can be remembered and what is forgotten!

Circa 2002, I was a total newbie, wet behind the ears, didn?t know about any gambling forums, bet selection or progressions.

Playing Roulette at Sky City Auckland, New Zealand, losing hand over fist. Somebody I was working alongside mentioned ?double up? until you win.  So I hot footed to the casino and decided to bet all 3 EC?s  doubling up until each EC won, something along those lines.

The point I wish to convey and emphasize, it is not so much the strategies deployed, which were destine to lose, rather the reactions of the casino staff.

Went to table starting at $25, betting 3 of EC?s, Wow they all lost, so I double up, lose again, the losing number wasn?t a repeat, nor was it zero.  Just me and the croupier, with a pit supervisor grinning in the back-ground.  I repeated the process two more times losing both bets and got wiped out.  So theoretically, the ball had landed, shall we say, Black, Odd, Low, 4 times in a row, no repeat, no zero.

However, after losing the 4th bet, it was the comment the croupier said to the smirking pit that stood out, ?perhaps I?m being too hard on him?. What the hell!  Were the spins random? Were they hell like.
Later in the year,  I booked a stop-over at Sky City Auckland and flew in from Wellington to Sky City Auckland with the aim of winning $5k, my strategy was to bet the opposing columns and dozens of the last number hit, triple up, yet off-set by any win so as to slow the progression rate.  Within an hour or two, I had reached my target.

Amazed, it was only mid-afternoon, I had a night booked, what should I do?As any undisciplined newbie would, you carry on playing, well its working, so why not.  At casinos you get to appreciate shift personal changes, usually on mass.  I didn?t give it a second thought that the croupier had just been un-expectantly been replaced by some Chinese guy.  I was seated at the bottom of the columns.  First spin, LOSE.

 Okay, no problem, had been playing all morning and had encountered that before.  Except this was different.  No word of a lie, I am 100% convinced the croupier tried to warn me, I will always believe this, you had to have witnessed it, rather than simply reading my  words in print.  It was clear as anything.  In hindsight obviously he was sent (the house burner, a phrase I learnt many years later via the forums) in to do a job and no doubt being monitored by the eye in the sky.

As he was scooping my lost column bets, he looked me straight in the eye and stared at me for a few seconds. He couldn?t say anything, as the tables are mic?d, but he was trying to warn me, to leave. Being stupid and naive I didn?t react, had just lost x chips, so bet again.  In the space of a few spins, I was cleaned out. Losing every spin thereafter.

Other example of dealers spinning against you, same venue. An Indian dealer, not being very good at what he was trying to do. Spun the ball so slow, it barely made 3 revolutions of the wheel, utterly blatant.

Another time at Sky City Auckland, I came up with a new option, bet against columns / dozens  that had repeated for maybe 6 times already.  Like I say, stuff tactics, more to do with the floor staff.

Jumping around tables, I?m doing fine. So I?m in a situation of betting the two outside columns, tripling my bets each time. I have about four bites, until you hit the table max.  I?m on my last bet, the Maori bitch, is aiming for the zero, I didn?t know this, but realised afterwards.  She missed it by one pocket. I don?t recall the number that hit, 26 or 32, that is not the point. After she missed the zero, the unintelligent cow wasn?t sure if I had won or lost.  After realising I had lost regardless of her missing the zero. She couldn?t contain herself.

Turned to embarrassed female pit-boss and said in front of a very busy table ?I got him?.  You for real, ?I got him?!!!!! Yeah right, meaning, despite the table being very busy, I was the target all along.  Anger wouldn?t even cover it, not even now as I recall the memory.

Talking to a few regulars in the place, and asking why do they do this.  They told me, ?if staff are good for the house, they get promoted to the VIP areas?.  ?Don?t have to deal with the $1 bettors, nicer working conditions?, give away Gold bracelets and the like to employees of the month, in other words, ?if you?re good for the house, you get rewarded?. .  You can?t tip down under, but the casino rewards them instead.

So besides the jealously and greater loyalty to their employer, rather than a punter who is splashing around more cash than they earn in a month, they have all the incentive in the world to take you down.
I?ve had another Maori dealer, take pity on me, asked me how I?m doing, told him losing, and all I want is random spins.  Managed to recoup my loss, but wanted to get ahead for the time spent at the table, change of dealer, yeah wipe out.  Newbie player, not knowing any better, but learning pretty fast.  There was another forum (VIP Project Sydney I think), where another poster who played at the same venue, after being cleaned out, the Maori dealer said to him, ?oh, you going over there now, don?t try that at my table buddy?.  Utterly disgusting, no more than bottom feeders, trying to compete with each other.

The realisation was beginning to drop, not only are you up against the HE, random, but also the dealer. I can?t say what I would like due to this boards censoring of words, suffice to say, starts with a ?c? and ends with?ts?.  I will emphasise once again, I was a newbie who knew nothing, all strategies used I would class as flawed, however, the point I am trying to get across, is the dealers reactions.

No idea how much the entire foray at Sky sh1tty cost me, probably in the region of $20k.
These are the main recollections, others have faded.

To be continued
Maths is great like that.  Once it's been proven that no method exists to do what you claim, it's not necessary to go through the details of your system to prove that it doesn't work.  You claim that it does something which can be proven impossible, therefore your claim is false. The details don't matter.  I use the names Junket, Junket King, Lugi, Mark Teruya, Rolex, Relex, Rolex Watch, Mark, Eaglite, JohnO & More depending on what day it is and whom I am attempting to be!

Offline Johno-Egalite

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Re: Is Roulette a Fair Game?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2019, 12:00:24 pm »
PART TWO, Sky City Adelaide, circa 2004

Pining for a recoup from Auckland, but leaving things alone for some time.  I appreciated (finally) that dealers were not only neutral, but would spin against you to make you lose should the need arise.  I believed stupidly like most on the forums, they could section spin, but not hit specific numbers (trust me, an experienced croupier can, more on that later).

Honestly, it really, really grates me, when experienced posters / players believe this can?t be done, when you play at a certain level, you will quickly discover the opposite is true, I can post a youTube video which demonstrates if I can find it. Even the infamous Mark Howie once posted he invited a croupier to his home, for some demo purposes, and came to the same conclusion.

Being a fan of the odds, ?more ways to win, than to lose?.  I concocted a system (1 column and 8 splits) where I was covering 28 numbers (including zero), where all losing numbers had a winning number either side.  Basically the dealer had to be pretty good for me to lose?  3.5 spins is break even, 4 wins for to recoup plus minor profit. Flat betting $25 chips.

Went in on a Friday, place was packed, busy table, trainee dealer (this is the crucial bit).  I was working out of my pockets, hardly any chips on the table (probably helped). Anyway, I had no idea how much I was ahead, I simply counted the number of wins needed, anytime I lost a spin. Pockets bulging after many hours go to the cage. Won in the region of $5k.  I went back on the Saturday and repeated the fate.

I was new to the place, they didn?t know me and I had just taken $10k off them in two night, call it luck or whatever, doesn?t matter.  If you were in my situation, besides being on cloud 9, you would think you had it made, give up your job and make a living from the casinos.

Why wouldn?t anybody think that way, turning $350 into $10k after only 2 nights.

I can?t recall what happened on the Sunday, I was looking for the same trainee, she was nowhere to be seen.  I probably got hit too many times before securing 4 wins. Impatience kicked in, convinced it was a good system, 6 chips on an outside column and 8 splits (yes I now realize, there are easier ways to cover 28 numbers).  Anyway, I made a BIG FATAL MISTAKE, I decided to speed up the recoup by doubling the bet after any loss.

It was around 6pm Monday, whatever happened Sunday, I was determined to recoup and then some. Empty table, will never forget the slime dealer, named was Robert.
Laid out my chips, number 24 hits, one of my losing numbers. So I?m thinking ?bad start?,  not to worry, have faith.  $700 laid out, 24 hits again.  It is worth pointing out here, at the time, while I knew they could section spin, I knew nothing about ?from where they release the ball?, control of revolutions, inner wheel sped.

$1400 on the table, paying no attention, 24 hits again. It gets a bit fuzzy now, it was a long time ago, I think I went one more time, laying out $2800, I walked a few meters way from the table to use an ash-tray.  Yep, you guessed right, 24 AGAIN.  Here is the rub, as I staggered back to the table, after noticing24 was showing on the marquee. Robert was scooping up my chips, he looked directly at me and said ?what were the odds in that?.  No way on this planet what had just occurred was not deliberate.  After cashing in $10k on the weekend, I was well and truly marked.

Sometime later, I dabbled with covering 30 numbers.  One particular morning, I was doing ok.  A unscheduled dealer change. One of my losing numbers, was number 6. Dealer comes in, the pit-boss said to this dealer, ?put it on 6?.    I clearly heard it. Don?t ask me why I didn?t move tables, I didn?t believe he would do it in first spin.

However, I thought, if he gets anywhere near number 6, I?ll move.  I didn?t get the chance, first spin, number 6. I?ve experienced dealers concentrating on the marque countless times, when they had no need, trying to figure out, where I would go next, because I started placing chips after ball release. It was horrendous, literally.   

Going to a table, placing a few hundred on the outside columns, bang first spin zero, ?sorry about that?. Nothing but a load of cheating jealous bastards.

Wasn?t long after that I gave up Roulette and focused on Baccarat.  But it doesn?t end there.
Maths is great like that.  Once it's been proven that no method exists to do what you claim, it's not necessary to go through the details of your system to prove that it doesn't work.  You claim that it does something which can be proven impossible, therefore your claim is false. The details don't matter.  I use the names Junket, Junket King, Lugi, Mark Teruya, Rolex, Relex, Rolex Watch, Mark, Eaglite, JohnO & More depending on what day it is and whom I am attempting to be!

Offline Johno-Egalite

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Re: Is Roulette a Fair Game?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2019, 12:02:17 pm »
PART 3, Gentings UK, circa 2010

After reading about Equilibrium vs Imbalanced, I decided to apply it to the 3 EC?s (I?ve posted about this on this forum).  Worked a charm for about a month, literally playing every night, I was winning constantly.  What you have to appreciate, when you are at the tables daily / nightly, you see the same regulars; you become very familiar with your surroundings and the game.

One session, things seemed different, the ball sounded different, making more noise, didn?t bounce as much.  The casino had changed the ball, wasn?t just me that noticed it, so did the regulars.  Now more zero?s appeared, heavier ball, better for the dealers to hit specific numbers due to less scatter.

After struggling, I decided to start venturing afar. Went to one venue, oh my God, I have never experienced anything so blatant, in regards to this particular female crabby dealer trying her best to make me lose.    Losing straight off the bat, placing 3 EC?s at once. Unable to recoup, buyin after buyin after buyin.  Was placing bets after ball release, was placing bets then moving them to their correct location after ball release, hedging the zero.

What was supposed to be a few hours, turned into about 10 hours of misery.    Finally the witch?s shift came to an end, my composure shoot to pieces, I decided to pocket my chips and not leave them on the table, so the bastards didn?t know if I was up or down.  Late at night, I finally got a few hundred ahead and took great pleasure in cashing up at the table.  I was followed to the cage by some snarly looking pit-boss, so I tuned to him after cashing out and said ?make sure you tell the earlier dealer, I did ok in the end?, which he didn?t appreciate.

I went with a mate to another small provincial Genting casino, about 20 miles out of town. I was still winning every session, so told him to follow my bets.  Boy did we struggle, I don?t know why.  It?s a hard to accept when you?re many thousands ahead after weeks and weeks of consecutive wins.  But we decided to quit, he lost, I later found a ?25 chip in my pocket, so I actually won ?25 LOL.

When the dealer knew we had stopped playing, we got chatting. Again, no word of lie, nobody was betting at the table. The dealer said, ?I?m now going to spin 007, because it?s been a few years since I?ve done that?.  I?m thinking, this is going to be a real eye opener for my mate, I already knew what they can do.  1st spin, zero, 2nd spin zero, 3rd spin, hit the 7, but jumped to the next pocket.

To believe an experienced dealer can?t place the ball on a specific number is utter nonsense (the house burner), once you play at a certain level, you will quickly find out. If you are betting low stakes, there is no need for them to do anything, once you consistently start taking profit into four figures, you will be stopped, by any means necessary.  Since 2002, I?ve had the fortune to be able to converse with dealers through friends, none of them dispute what I believe they can do is false.   As I eluded, I?ve done it all, betting after ball release, moving chips after ball release, witnessed their long stares at the marque. Why should any of this be even necessary, it shouldn?t, yet is.

As I?ve said, I would not go anywhere near any casino game where the dealer is directly influencing the outcome, bar tips, they are clearing on average ?350 per week in the UK, basically the minimum wage, they are not on your side wanting you to win more than they earn in a month.

Take from the above, what you will, not so much to do with how I played, more to do with the comments endured, witnessed.

The tip of an ice-berg, obviously it works the other way, friend of a friend who knows  a dealer working in the VIP area, friend is getting married, an arrangement is made, was told how much he is allowed to win and not to push things beyond that. Tip given away from casino premises, dodgy dealings with people you dare not cross.

Granted some are useless at section spinning, some are top notch.   
Maths is great like that.  Once it's been proven that no method exists to do what you claim, it's not necessary to go through the details of your system to prove that it doesn't work.  You claim that it does something which can be proven impossible, therefore your claim is false. The details don't matter.  I use the names Junket, Junket King, Lugi, Mark Teruya, Rolex, Relex, Rolex Watch, Mark, Eaglite, JohnO & More depending on what day it is and whom I am attempting to be!

Offline Johno-Egalite

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Roulette Sector Shooting
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2019, 12:18:36 pm »
Cashing in on section shooting

This document is something that a respected person put together to try and distil ideas that I have in reference to dealers aiming for sectors on the roulette wheel. I will start with some history of my ideas and then move onto the theory aspects. Don?t just skip the tedious history as you will see how I arrived to where I am today.


I am a corporate entertainer in the UK (not me, rather the author), many of the events that I attend have what is known as a ?fun casino? which tends to incorporate all of the popular table games. A couple of years ago I was working an event, when I got into a conversation with one of the croupiers at the roulette wheel, he was an old boy (we will call him Stan) who had worked casinos the whole of his working life. I asked if there was any truth that they can influence the outcomes for red and black. He told me that he couldn't do it?  ..but he could hit numbers, he even offered a demonstration. He told me that he would get within 2 numbers either side of any number that I called.

He then proceeded to either hit or get within 2 neighbours for the next half a dozen or so spins. I was amazed and asked if he had ever been asked to ?hit for the house? as it were. He said that often he was brought in when there was a heavy bettor who was betting on a section of the wheel, who was creaming the casino. He would be asked to avoid the numbers that a particular punter had his chips on. As an aside I also asked him about air-ball roulette, he wasn?t familiar with it but said that if it is ?mechanical then it is rigged? make of that what you will.

He also told me that the wheel that he was using was of the older type and wasn?t sure if it could be done on a modern wheel. Since then I have been trying to find out whether this could be done on a low fret wheel.  I have also talked to other croupiers at events who also say that they can do it, some almost shrug it off as a simple task. In the book killer roulette the author claims that he could do it on particular wheels.

Recently I have put mechanical bet selections on the back burner and been researching methods using the physics of the wheel and made some interesting discoveries in respect of section shooting.

The first thing that I noticed with Stans technique was that he would wait until the number that I had requested, rotated into a certain position, before he launched the ball. The rotor (spinning part) was at a constant speed. I learnt later that the ball would have to be launched at a consistent velocity too, but not necessarily exactly the same. I have also learnt that the wheel needs to be defective or tilted for this to work. So these are the clues that someone is dealing against you ie.

    Waiting for section or number to rotate into a certain position before launching the ball
    Constant rotor and ball speed
    Tilted wheel

Lets analyse these points further.

Tilted Wheel

A tilted wheel is a term for a wheel with a dominant drop zone, in other words the ball will either drop from a particular point on the track, or it will hit a particular diamond more often than the others. Herb from VLS (I respect his view on this) reckons that the wheel must have a dominant drop and is imperative for any section shooting or dealer signature to happen. Note that dealers may not be aware that the wheel is tilted they just know that they can do it on some of the wheels. It is estimated that 1 in 5 wheels are tilted.

A dominant drop zone can be caused by a multitude of factors, principally,

    It could literally be tilted, ie not level so that the ball has to climb at certain points, thus slowing it down, in the last couple of revolutions, enough to drop in a predictable area. Tilt can be caused by not levelling the wheel properly, or it could be down to people leaning on a busy table.
    The wheel could be defective, ie worn ball track through thousands of spins, or warp-age in the apron caused by the heat form lights, air humidity variations etc.

For a wheel to be considered tilted, the ball needs to collide with a diamond about 4 -5 times out of ten. There are also wheels with less of a bias that have 2 or three diamonds which hit more than any other. These characteristics can be checked visually whilst playing the game. Note that if the ball is spun both clockwise and counter clockwise then the same wheel could have one dominant diamond for cw and another for ccw spins. So when recording note which is which.

Constant wheel and consistent ball speed

Lets look at the wheel speed first you will probably be able to get a rough estimate by just looking at the wheel eg is it fast or slow, and is the spin about the same speed. It seems that a lot of dealers keep the wheel about the same speed. If you can count two seconds in your head you can then have a temporary reference point and as zero passes it you can count to 2 and see what number passes below that same ref point. On the next spin do the same, if the speed of the wheel is the same then the numbers will also be the same.

The ball speed you are basically looking for the same amount of revolutions each time so if the dealer spins 16 revs then the next time should be 16 revs. However due to tilt you may find that 15 or 17 revs achieve the same result. Also the wheel speed can allow for + or ? revolutions sometimes.

Note that the ball always decelerates at the same rate and will leave the upper track at the same speed, many people don?t know this. This means that it doesn?t matter whether the ball is thrown fast or slow, it will eventually reach a speed where centrifugal force no longer exists and it will then leave the track (not at the same place). However what people probably confuse is that a particular dealer when throwing a slow ball seems to hit his target, but this is probably down to the fact that he has more chance of throwing the correct amount of revs when it is a slower launch, another dealer may be more consistent with a faster launch.

Note to self: I wonder if its possible to determine the exact moment and location that a ball leaves the wall, because if you knew this you would possibly have an idea where the ball will drop??????

Waiting for the number to rotate into position

This is a little more difficult to explain but is also your biggest clue as far as I am concerned that they are shooting against you. They will need to aim for something but where are they aiming??? The easiest way of finding this, if you suspect that they are cheating, is to:

    pick a temporary reference point on the wheel head, lets say a diamond or line at 12 o'clock.
    As the ball is launched observe the number below your ref point, lets say it is zero.
    Note the number pocket that the ball lands in, and note the yardage (number of pockets) that the ball has travelled from your original number, In this case zero, to the final destination, 6. in this example it is 10 pockets.
    Therefore if you had been looking in a position 10 pockets from your 12 O?clock ref point (3 O?clock) when the ball had been launched then you would have been able to predict the area of the wheel that they were shooting at, on that particular spin.
    Repeat for a few times to see where would be the optimum place to observe when they launch the ball for example using your temporary ref point at 12 o?clock you might find that the ball landed with the following yardage 10, 15, 8, 5, 12, 10??.. pockets. From this data you can see that the dealer is hitting pockets in a range from 5 ? 15 pockets away from your 12 o?clock ref point, but the majority of decisions are around the 10 pocket distance mark. Which means that you would need to look to the 3 o?clock position, when the ball is launched, to see where the ball is likely to land.

If you re visit that web site that I pointed out with the video footage of the guy spinning to numbers, you will see all of the above conditions, tilted wheel, consistent wheel speed and consistent ball spin. Watch how he is disguising the fact that he is waiting for the number to rotate to a certain point. If you watch closely you will see that the target number will be at somewhere between 7 and 9 oclock. Except when he misses on the number 4. if he was doing that all night and you were to look at the the number at 8 oclock when he launched and you bet say the number and 5 either side you would make a killing.

This brings me to a couple of points:

    Don?t be fooled by them not looking into the bowl before they spin, it is an easy matter to spot the number and estimate the time that it will take to get to the ref point whilst looking away.

    There are a number of dodges that they could use to make out that they aren?t waiting. You have to be sure that they launch from the number pocket that they pick the ball out of, or thereabouts. Note in the States it is common practice to pick the ball out and wait before launching it, so be aware!

Check the fella in the grey suit rubbing his hands at the end, pr1cks.

Maths is great like that.  Once it's been proven that no method exists to do what you claim, it's not necessary to go through the details of your system to prove that it doesn't work.  You claim that it does something which can be proven impossible, therefore your claim is false. The details don't matter.  I use the names Junket, Junket King, Lugi, Mark Teruya, Rolex, Relex, Rolex Watch, Mark, Eaglite, JohnO & More depending on what day it is and whom I am attempting to be!