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[alrelax]

The questions are tough, the questions are ones that most never find the answers to, never really want to deal with, or ones that are quickly dismissed as unanswerable.  But they MUST be!

I desperately struggled for years to engage into finding answers and just thinking about it stressed me out countless times. So I simply avoided the questions and the soul-searching it demanded of me. Until............Recently.

The tangled and the misunderstood realm of the game entered my mind and remained in the forefront at the end of every single session I played. The presentments, the shuffle, the dealer, the amount won or given back, the published and written Q's & A's and stories. All ran through my head on the way out of the casino after each session.

Think about it. The shoe produces presentments that fall within the sphere, the domain within which anything and everything can occur, prevail, sometimes dominates the field, or fails to produce anything recognizable. Other times the presentments are totally recognizable and they match our beliefs, desires and decisions spot on, sometimes even allowing us to win like 7 or 8 times out of 10 leading us to fantastic wins. 

And with that said, onward with what this is really about, decisions and making them while winning.  How would it have been great if we previously left? Think about it, sure we are after anything to protect our buy in and a small or smallish win.  But IMO and experience, the greatest wins and 'great' sessions come after an 'up and down' of my buy in.  Which means, a drawdown of my buy in, evening out and getting a little bit ahead, once even twice, like being on a roller coaster ride. 

Larger wins take a climb, meaning a bit back-and-forth, winning, losing, pushing back-and-forth, etc. Parlay and positive progression wagering really boosts the person's chip stacks, visually and physically which will definitely assist in relieving the person's emotional downturn and stress factor, making it easier for clearer and more focused decision making.  It does for myself every time I get within the event of a nice ongoing winning session. 

IMO there is no magic percentile when to stop or continue play when you are winning. But one thing for 100% certain, if you stop, you cannot win more. And the more you win the more you want to continue playing. I don't care who you are, that applies to each one of us.

One example comes to mind that happened to myself not long ago. I arrived at my regular casino and no one was playing and one of my absolute favorite dealers was sitting there bored to death. We engaged in some quick small talk and I was gonna go get something to eat and kill an hour or so and come back. Anyway I took out only $100 from my buy in risk capital I brought and I laid it out on the table. She said, 'WHAT'?  I said, one hand be nice, just checking you out before the real play when I come back from eating. I put $80 on the banker and $20 on the fortune 7. She gave me a fortune 7 for an $800 win. I played a few more hands, and I won most of them. Not many hands later she gives me a second Fortune seven. A few people sat down at that time. By the end of the shoe I had over a $2,000 profit, got up to well over $3,000 and gave back about $1,000. She is telling me to take it and leave. Not a bad return on the next to nothing investment of my only $100 buy in.

But I felt something and not just because I had a huge return on my $100. So into the following shoe, I reached well over $8,000 of win money and I called it quits once I drop down to $7,000 of pure win. All of it off that next to nothing $100 buy in. 

And I remember her, seriously telling me to take the money and leave when I was at the $2,000-$3,000 mark. Thinking back on that, at least twice I almost did, but the ups and downs were quick and I stalled out at that $1,800-$2,000 mark and again at $2,900-$3,300 mark as well. Then I took off again with winning most all parlays and positive progressions for 1-2 or 3 hands and losing only those when I backed down to my base unit wagers.

So if I left with say $2,500 I never would have reached the $7,000 to $8,000;mark. I was basically doing a 1/3 risk of what I was winning once I reached the $3,000 level which I have written about countless times in my money management method, that I normally use.

Here are three quick examples of what I am talking about here actually was applied and gave me clear advantages.

1)


2)


3)



NOTE:  Reference #3.  I have several pictures of the scoreboard and will post them.

So many believe it is an easy decision to make. I guess it depends on your experience, outlook, desires and goals. For myself, I love the point of working my drawdown, getting a bit of profit, working that into my money management method and looking for the 'takeoff'. And for me that is where the money is really at. At least it is for myself and most of the people that I play with at the casinos. Buy in safe-a but of profit. But I do know playing on all win/won money is what I strive for.  But, it gets confusing at times. How much longer to quit, risk the win money further, leave even if winning fails to continue, etc., etc.

So many repeatedly write/say on the forums, win 1 to 3 units and leave. Lose 3 to 5 units and stop. I can't fathom that and I don't play that way. I don't have those kind of win stop, loss stop rules. I can never see making anything substantial if you play like that. Maybe I'm wrong? However mine are like so many. They want to win sizable amounts and I do, quite often. My loss stop is my buy in money. My buy in is my risk capital for the session. My win stop is unclear without definitive numbers. Once I takeoff, if I do, I govern myself by my 1/3rd, 1/3rd, 1/3rd Money Management Method.  Which works like a rock-solid rule manuscript maintaining success or having further profitability 1,000,000% of the time!

It works extremely well and I know it does, because I have no regrets if I was winning nicely, then gave back 1/3rd win and continued my play with my second 1/3rd of my win as my playing money. If I took off again, great, that is what my 1/3rd sectors are designed to do. If I lost a 1/3rd sector and struggling with my second 1/3rd sector, I am normally done. I have my buy in plus 1/3rd to 2/3rds of my win.  Cash out, leave, done and that emotional, 'I shoulda and coulda' doesn't exist!!!

So many win and see their session as unprecedented and a labored win they so rightfully deserved. They get into a zone, tuning everything out and become their own worst enemy most every single time they win or when the wins are happening for them. But they have nothing to govern themselves with.

It is easier said than accomplished at the table, but the only way to really excel is to focus, be extremely conscious and forget the past and what the shoe has produced or failed to produce in the past hands. Wager with the shoe's presentments and do not wager for your own desires as to what the shoe should produce or what your desires are. 

We talk about it all the time, especially with the ones we actually gamble with. The questions go something like; "How long do you play" or "If you are winning how long do you stay" or "If you are losing, how long will you attempt to come back" or "If you keep winning do you just up and leave at a certain point". And so on and so forth.

Tough, real tough if you soul search. By theory, so simple. If you are winning and start to lose, leave. If you were losing and can't get above your buy in or your buy in is depleting, leave.  But, it is not easy because we all know the presentments can certainly match our decisions and blast us into the positive if we were losing, or if we were winning, can blast us even further ahead. 

There are no easy, simple answers and never will be. However, you will wish you left much more than staying when losing. Because you experience the loss of your funds if you lose them. However, if you win/won or broke even and left, you probably will not really know what would have happened to really come about with a definitive conclusion. 

The 4 things I found that give me advantages into my play.

1). DO NOT ATTEMPT/LIVE to beat the game/session.  You can't and will never do it!  I promise you that;

2). TRULY UNDERSTAND what you are up against;

3). CALM AND PATIENT.  Hard as heck to do with losses, but you must.  Don't dwell and don't have the mind frame to recover and win something; 

4). UNDERSTAND AND REMAIN CONSCIOUS of the following.  Anything and everything can happen in no particular order or protocol whatsoever. 

[KungFuBac]

Good essay/several good points.

"...But I felt something and not just because I had a huge return on my $100. So into the following shoe, I reached well over $8,000 of win money and I called it quits once I drop down to $7,000 of pure win. All of it off that next to nothing $100 buy in. ..."

    that's an adequate ROI, 

"...Larger wins take a climb, meaning a bit back-and-forth, winning, losing, pushing back-and-forth, etc. Parlay and positive progression wagering really boosts the person's chip stacks, ..."


    I agree. The larger the win the larger the risk. The inverse is true as well(lower appetite for risk and one will win less/ may lose too. So lower risk tolerance can also bust a buyin.


"...So many believe it is an easy decision to make. I guess it depends on your experience, outlook, desires and goals. For myself, I love the point of working my drawdown, getting a bit of profit, working that into my money management method and looking for the 'takeoff'. And for me that is where the money is really at..."

    I agree--especially the part about understanding the inevitable drawdown.
Though I don't play any more or fewer hands after a sizeable win or loss. I might switch shoes or pause wagering if not in sync with the outcomes.

 Re: Drawdown:I feel we should exhaust our buyin (meaning we actually utilize the whole buyin), in our attempt to earn a sizeable return. A mistake I made early on was accepting the risk to my buyin but not really exhausting(putting the buyin to work), so my potential to earn my buyin was very low. Yet, I could physically still lose it all. Flat betting  or utilizing only minimal gyrations of negpro or pospro can still wipe out a buyin.


"...The 4 things I found that give me advantages into my play.

1). DO NOT ATTEMPT/LIVE to beat the game/session.  You can't and will never do it!  I promise you that;

    My opinion differs on this one. I attempt to beat the game every day/ when Im not playing Im researching, studying the game, discussing with others,  ..etc on how to improve and beat it. So I guess I am obsessed and live to beat the game. Much like trying to beat the stock market. One must be obsessed with winning as both are very arduous tasks. Sometimes I receive favor /sometimes I don't.

2). TRULY UNDERSTAND what you are up against;

3). CALM AND PATIENT.  Hard as heck to do with losses, but you must.  Don't dwell and don't have the mind frame to recover and win something;

    I agree this is the key. Its all about being patient(along with self discipline). Its easy to go on tilt when losing as well as when winning(Surprisingly many seem to have more difficulty with the winning). They won't allow themselves to really win big but will chase losses with their very last dollars.

4). UNDERSTAND AND REMAIN CONSCIOUS of the following.  Anything and everything can happen in no particular order or protocol whatsoever. ..."
    I agree.


Good read/ congrats on an excellent win.

[alrelax]

1). DO NOT ATTEMPT/LIVE to beat the game/session.  You can't and will never do it!  I promise you that;

AS YOU WROTE:  "My opinion differs on this one. I attempt to beat the game every day/ when Im not playing Im researching, studying the game, discussing with others,  ..etc on how to improve and beat it. So I guess I am obsessed and live to beat the game. Much like trying to beat the stock market. One must be obsessed with winning as both are very arduous tasks. Sometimes I receive favor /sometimes I don't."

Well I actually meant, play until you win amounts greater than previously or you totally lose all.  So many players wherever I go, are winning and when engaged in conversation, they are telling me their goal is to beat their previous high/record win or they just keep randomly adding on win goals as they continue playing.  Then when they start losing, their new win goal reverts to recouping their previous win they gave back.  Frustration and emotional decision making enters.  Huge disadvantage. 

THEREFORE, based upon that, my original meaning would be:

Accepting 100% some sessions will not be win sessions and governing your wins with a great MMM plan is what I was referring to. 

Not, being a dedicated hard researcher, risk taker, learner, putting in the hours or anything along those points.

[AsymBacGuy]

As always a good post from Al.

I concur with KFB about your #1 point: yes, we're obsessed to win no matter what, it's just a matter of time we'll get the full power of our advantage.

#2: Yes, definitely you're right. In the vast majority of the times we players are going uphill but sometimes the road descends so steeply that we couldn't care less about the normal road unfavourable conditions.

#3 and #4: Perfectly spot on!

as.