Author Topic: Why bac could be beatable itlr  (Read 74141 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline AsymBacGuy

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #360 on: July 12, 2021, 01:32:40 am »
Baccarat is the only gambling game where some (rare) selected bets will get the player an astounding positive EV, best bj counters at the most favourable opportunities cannot think to get this huge advantage.

Whenever a shoe is somewhat biased by a lack of perfect randomness (say almost everytime), the player will get a sure indeniable edge.
Unfortunately most part of shoes will present a too tiny non random feature, making such non random results as a kind of random results succession.

The reason is about the average biased card distribution affecting most of the BP results but way less the AB limited random walk successions considered by mathematicians as totally independent from each other besides their general probability to happen.
Of course a perfect random card distribution cannot get valuable hints at any derived r.w. we wish to put in action.

It's like that per each shoe played we're challenging the actual distribution to get or not for long some general more likely AB situations after a given deviation appeared at the same terms.
A feature not exploitable whenever a shoe is perfect randomly dealt, but most of the times this thing cannot happen.

as.   
Next to edge sorting it's me

Winners don't do different things, they do things differently (Albalaha)

Offline AsymBacGuy

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #361 on: July 13, 2021, 11:27:46 pm »
Let's try to clarify the issue.

Itlr simple B and P successions cannot be beaten by any means as they are too way affected by variance, that is by the actual card distribution that we know not being randomly placed as we think. Moreover B and P probabilities are dynamically moving hand per hand very often giving a fk about the general B/P probability.
Therefore nearly half of the times we'll be right and the remaning half we'll be wrong, all wagers burdened by the math negative edge.

If we try to select B and P results by registering longer patterns, we're increasing our chances of success but almost always not to the point of erasing and inverting the HE as the actual card distribution is the king (or queen).

A sophisticated progression could make us winners for long but it can't erase the invariable probability to lose everything (and more), it's just a matter of time.

Hence imo the Big Road is one of the worst successions to look for to get hints before betting.
In fact our data say that the probability to be long term ahead by betting even selectively B and P hands is zero.
I'm not rot ruling out the possibility that some very experienced players can be ahead even by betting BP hands but I guess it's a very remote probability.

Then what should make baccarat as a beatable game?

The average shoe card composition affecting sd values of certain situations not strictly belonging to BP hands.
The more we're waiting for a given AB deviation to show up, higher wil be our EV on our bets, up to the point that we are kind of facing a Bingo game, now impersonating the casino's side.

I'm implying that it'll be way more likely to get ridiculous low sd values after a given expected event hadn't come out one or two times than to steadily wager toward positive situations.   

Curiously, the probability to cross those astounding EV+ spots is more or less equiparable to the probability to get valuable positive card counting situations happening at bj.
Now with a way higher positive expectancy and of course by taking into account very different issues.

It's not that difficult to grasp how to transform BP successions into some AB sequences capable to get very low sd values.

Next time we'll see the general principles how to do that.

as.
Next to edge sorting it's me

Winners don't do different things, they do things differently (Albalaha)

Offline KungFuBac

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #362 on: July 14, 2021, 06:04:25 pm »
Good post AsymBacGuy

"...I'm implying that it'll be way more likely to get ridiculous low sd values after a given expected event hadn't come out one or two times than to steadily wager toward positive situations.  ..."


Continued Success,
"There are many large numbers smaller than one."

Offline Albalaha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2203
  • Gender: Male
  • Learn about randomness before trying to fight that
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #363 on: July 18, 2021, 06:23:41 am »
Hmm. So this topic is nearing conclusion finally:
Quote
Hence imo the Big Road is one of the worst successions to look for to get hints before betting.
In fact our data say that the probability to be long term ahead by betting even selectively B and P hands is zero.
I'm not rot ruling out the possibility that some very experienced players can be ahead even by betting BP hands but I guess it's a very remote probability.

Then what should make baccarat as a beatable game?
[/b][/color]
            Only way is a sensible money management that is dynamic enough to handle the worst with least damage(if it loses everything that it won in good or average times, it is not a money management at all)and win thereafter without seeking clumping or compensatory wins. All the rest approaches are like chasing a mirage. It will always appear very close to reach while it is nowhere actually.
      No betselection will win by itself betting flat or with positive progressions.
Email: earnsumit@gmail.com - Visit my blog: http://albalaha.lefora.com
Can mentor a real, regular and serious player

Offline AsymBacGuy

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #364 on: July 19, 2021, 01:04:49 am »
Thanks KFB!

@Alba
Baccarat is not a game of math results, baccarat is a game of card distributions favoring this or that.
Even a portion of a black jack deck astoundingly rich of high cards could be not profitable for the player whether those high cards are confined at the unplayable portion of it.
Who knows if cards are (voluntarily or not) shuffled in this way repeatedly?

At baccarat this problem doesn't exist as almost all cards are utilized and of course we can bet whenever we want.
It will be the time that baccarat decks will be played 'Montecarlo style' that is cutting off from the play a lot of cards.

No matter how weird a deck is shuffled, especially whether a kind of non randomness is acting, at some points of most shoes some patterns will be more likely than others by a likelihood surpassing the general probability values and, more importantly, the negative EV.

Let's consider the easiest BP succession then trying to compare it to the actual BP distribution in order to build a new 'road' (S=same result, O=opposite result)

BPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBP........

BBBBPPBPPBPPPBPBPPBBBPPPPBPBPPB (actual shoe)

we'll get:

S
O
S
O
SSS
OOO
S
OOOOO
SS
O
SS
O
S
OOOOO
SS

Notice that instead of comparing the actual shoe with a BPBPBP succession we could use an original scheme starting with a P (that is an infinite PBPBPBPBPBPB sequence) anyway nothing will change as now S are O and vice versa.

Of course and depending upon which original scheme we'll use, actual long chopping shoe situations will translate into univocal S or O long streaks.

Other actual shoe patterns as

BB
PP
BB
PP
BB
PP
BB
PP...

become (BPBP original scheme)

S
OO
SS
OO
SS
OO
SS
OO
S

or (PBPB original scheme)

O
SS
OO
SS
OO
SS
OO
SS
O

If unlikely shoes provide a kind of

BBB
PPP
BBB
PPP
BBB
PPP  sequence, we'll get

S
O
SS
O
SS
O
SS
O
SS
O
SS
O
S

or the specular

O
S
OO
S
OO
S
OO
S
OO
S
OO
S
OO
S
O  counterpart

Do not waste your time to find out which shoe sequences will provide long consecutive S or O streaks: those situations are happening whenever a strong balanced BP succession will come out as

B
P
B
PP
B
P
BB
P
B
P....

forming a

SSSS
OOOO
SSSS... sequence

To cut a long story short, this simple tool will help us to find how "balanced" is the card distribution acting at every shoe dealt, knowing that under normal circumstances (live shoes) long balanced situations are restricted within countable values. Meaning that sooner or later they'll be disregarded, especially if we're restricting the field of our operations into 1,2 and 3 S/O outcomes.
Streaks and singles distribution is the answer.

Whenever a 3+ BP streak will happen (and we know that shoes not producing at least one 3+ streak at either side are very very very very unlikely to happen, say it's an almost zero occurence) S or O streaks of such limited lenght must shift.

In some way we're challenging bac shoes to produce balanced card distributions for long, a thing that for obvious reasons cannot happen in the vast majority of situations.

Consider this registration as an additional derived road to look for. Check out your live data and let me know.
Streaks and singles.

as.
Next to edge sorting it's me

Winners don't do different things, they do things differently (Albalaha)

Offline alrelax

  • B&M Player since 1980
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3742
  • Gender: Male
  • 'Caring for Kids' Nonprofit Children's Assistance
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #365 on: July 19, 2021, 01:57:36 am »
As ASYM said in the post above:
 "Baccarat is not a game of math results, baccarat is a game of card distributions favoring this or that."


I add:

Exactly.  And once a player is well acclimated with the game of baccarat, he can generally find that those very distributions are contained within Sections.

Problem continually arising is the change of the presentments or the extended continuance no one believes is actually happening. 
My Blog within BetSelection Board: https://betselection.cc/alrelax's-blog/

Played well over 34,200 shoes of baccarat since I started playing at B&M USA casinos.

"Don't say it's a winning hand until you are getting paid for it".

Played numerous properties in Las Vegas, Reno, Southern California, Atlantic City, Connecticut, South Florida, The South/Southeast as well as most areas of The Midwest.

Baccarat, actually a mixture of Watergate, attacking the Gotti Family and the famous ear biting Tyson fight leading to disqualification and a near riot.  Bac has all that more.
 
EMAIL: Betselectionboard@Gmail.Com

Offline Albalaha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2203
  • Gender: Male
  • Learn about randomness before trying to fight that
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #366 on: July 19, 2021, 05:34:59 am »
Quote
Baccarat is not a game of math results, baccarat is a game of card distributions favoring this or that.

This is like a revelation !
           I thought it is a totally random game based upon mathematical calculations and house edge and payouts slightly favoring casinos. I never knew that it was meant to do card distributions. How about roulette? That is meant to teach how a ball moves over a rim and gets into 37/38 pockets? Might be to educate people about laws of motion.
Email: earnsumit@gmail.com - Visit my blog: http://albalaha.lefora.com
Can mentor a real, regular and serious player

Offline AsymBacGuy

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #367 on: July 20, 2021, 10:58:46 pm »
Everyone here or there can bet his/her a.s.s that live baccarat shoes are not perfect randomly shuffled.

And we can't give a lesser damn whether math formulas state otherwise. Mathematicians write formulas, we play the game. And as long as we are heavy long term winners such math statements go right into the toilet.
Especially after having implemented our plans by a couple of statistical tools studied in the past by eminent authors.
 
It's virtually impossible to shuffle 416 cards randomly.
Thus at some points of certain shoes (not all shoes dealt) something is well more likely than what the fkng general probability dictates.
Cards are removed, I mean key cards removed cannot come again and when they are 'live' they can't disappear so distributing itlr in a more likely way.

On average, a shoe will distribute back to back results very differently whether key cards are concentrated or diluted, yet the number of key cards is finite as well as the number of hands dealt per shoe. 

That makes baccarat a very different game than roulette where each spin is totally independent from the previous one and the possible non random features are very very hard to detect (assuming they're really acting).
(An exception was found at certain Interblock automated wheels where rotor speed and ball speed sequences were somewaht detectable, yet low sums of money can be wagered there and the general HE to overcome remains -5.26%)

We've already seen that transforming a 'random' BP succession into 'derived' sequences will get itlr different "general" patterns depending upon which pace of BP results we've decided to take as a trigger.

Naturally and as Alrealx pointed out several times here, a 'more likely attitude' is acting just when it seems to act at the actual shoe we're playing at.

Take the cockroach derived road as an example.
By far and among the three derived roads displayed on the screen, this road will get the higher amount of longer streaks, but it's not that unlikely that this road will form very long single and double results with just one or a couple of 3+s streaks.

In our opinion and according to our long term data, CR is the worst succession to get hints from as it's triggered by a quite large amount of actual hands.
In some way too diluting or too concentrating a possible key card impact.

Actually CR is the only one derived road succession among the common three DR's not giving us a long term advantage by flat betting as too influenced by positive or negative variance.

It's like the ancient 'in medio stat virtus (the right position is in the middle) quote takes its full meaning even at baccarat.
At baccarat we could translate this quote into discarding Big Road results and CR results.

Of course there are additional sub successions to look for, I've provided the BPBPBP... original scheme and there are infinitely others.

The advantage of setting up a derived road by utilizing a BPBP...orginal sequence compared to the actual shoe sequence is that non random card distrubutions will get more likely the production of 3+ streaks.
We know that live shoes are way affected by a higher percentage of long BP streaks than pc samples.

If this streaks probability is somewhat endorsed, we know that the AB probability will form shorter and more detectable patterns as sooner or later such 3+ streak must happen.

In fact a BBB or PPP sequence compared to a BPB... or PBP... original scheme will form respectively a ABA and BAB sequence or a BAB and ABA sequence.

Of course the losing counterpart comes out when a BPBP... original sequence will collide or coincide with an actual BPBP (AAAA) or PBPB (BBBB) situation.

Good news is that itlr non random shoes will form more likely BP streaks of some lenght than BP long patterns of singles and doubles.

It would be hard to accept this statement unless a careful long live data compared with pc data were attained.

After all pc samples are not placing phisically, live shoes will.

I mean that itlr the number of shoes richer than average of AB streaks will be lower than the number of shoes poor of those AB streaks.

It's up to us to select the possible profitable situations to bet at, knowing that not evry shoe and/or not every shoe sequence is bettable.

as.
Next to edge sorting it's me

Winners don't do different things, they do things differently (Albalaha)

Offline KungFuBac

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #368 on: July 22, 2021, 02:44:32 pm »
Hi AsymBacGuy

Good essay/thx.

Can u please expand on these sentences a little more as Im not 100% clear? Thx in advance.

"...We've already seen that transforming a 'random' BP succession into 'derived' sequences will get itlr different "general" patterns depending upon which pace of BP results we've decided to take as a trigger.

Naturally and as Alrealx pointed out several times here, a 'more likely attitude' is acting just when it seems to act at the actual shoe we're playing at. ..."



Continued Success,
"There are many large numbers smaller than one."

Offline AsymBacGuy

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #369 on: July 25, 2021, 11:05:38 pm »
Hi KFB!

"...We've already seen that transforming a 'random' BP succession into 'derived' sequences will get itlr different "general" patterns depending upon which pace of BP results we've decided to take as a trigger.


Ok, take the cockroach road.
Long red or blue streaks come out whenever strong symmetrical 3-paced patterns or strong asymmetrical one-way BP streaks come out of the blue.
In either way red and blue singled and doubles patterns are slight less likely to happen.
In some way and since long b or r streaks tend to come out consecutively at this derived road, we may deduce that more often than not a quite diluted pace of registration tend to get strong polarized key card distribution in a way or another.
But notice that at this road just one hand that went 'wrong' will affect decisevely the next distributions.

Summarizing, the cr is the best indicator about how much key cards are concentrated or diluted along any shoe.
Then it's up to us to assess whether a single or a series of  'key' results was/were mathematically shifted to prolong a b or r streak or to cut it off.

Think that we can build additional derived roads getting a 4-pace or 5-pace registration...

The other two d.r's tend to be so stable to provide certain more likely outcomes for long or to provide some back to back situations that it's virtually impossible to state that 'baccarat is a game of non detectable patterns' (a careful reading of my unb plans would help).
I mean that at those two d.r.'s we can't give a lesser fk about how things have actually developed from a two-card math point of view.

In the improbable event that casinos will think that derived roads could be a valuable tool for players, so not directly displaying them on the screen, we know that an infinite different random walks registration will make the same job now at more precise values.
And we do not need to write them on paper.

The perfect plan would be to spot a betting line capable to get 7-10 all W sequences per shoe that must come out by a well higher degree of probability than what math values dictate.
Of course we need to wager two times each spot toward getting a more likely scenario.
And naturally whenever a shoe starts with a negative spot, we can't reach that aim.

as.
Next to edge sorting it's me

Winners don't do different things, they do things differently (Albalaha)

Offline AsymBacGuy

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #370 on: July 25, 2021, 11:22:39 pm »
BTW, Alrelax stated that no matter how things develop at the start, most shoes are producing 'turning points' capable to get the player a kind of an edge.

Knowing his vast experience on the subject (and he's used to play serious money and not $10 bets), I tend to give him a lot of credit, after all Al is one of the few players I'd bet my money with.
Probably he's one of the few best opportunistic guys that tries to get the best of those rare situations occurring, meaning that it's the person capable to quit the table as a huge winner.

as.   

 
Next to edge sorting it's me

Winners don't do different things, they do things differently (Albalaha)

Offline alrelax

  • B&M Player since 1980
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3742
  • Gender: Male
  • 'Caring for Kids' Nonprofit Children's Assistance
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #371 on: July 26, 2021, 12:58:20 am »
Two things come instantly to mind reference your last few posts.  Copy and pasted from a post of mine.

1)   First and foremost, anything and everything can continue or cease within a shoe;

5)  You cannot adjust your emotional level on the better and larger wins (and losses) as easy as you might believe you can. This is super important and that emotional level will send you into another realm of belief, that you should not be in and one you cannot understand at the table.

Alrelax.
My Blog within BetSelection Board: https://betselection.cc/alrelax's-blog/

Played well over 34,200 shoes of baccarat since I started playing at B&M USA casinos.

"Don't say it's a winning hand until you are getting paid for it".

Played numerous properties in Las Vegas, Reno, Southern California, Atlantic City, Connecticut, South Florida, The South/Southeast as well as most areas of The Midwest.

Baccarat, actually a mixture of Watergate, attacking the Gotti Family and the famous ear biting Tyson fight leading to disqualification and a near riot.  Bac has all that more.
 
EMAIL: Betselectionboard@Gmail.Com

Offline AsymBacGuy

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #372 on: July 26, 2021, 02:35:34 am »
Two things come instantly to mind reference your last few posts.  Copy and pasted from a post of mine.

1)   First and foremost, anything and everything can continue or cease within a shoe;

5)  You cannot adjust your emotional level on the better and larger wins (and losses) as easy as you might believe you can. This is super important and that emotional level will send you into another realm of belief, that you should not be in and one you cannot understand at the table.

Alrelax.

1) Very true, yet a larger than 50% probability is going to produce more likely patterns along the way. Not at every shoe dealt, of course.
For example, it'll be way more difficult for a shoe to produce a larger than average number of 3+ streaks of any nature than the opposite situation (shoes short of 3+ streaks).

5) That's completely true regardless.

as.

Next to edge sorting it's me

Winners don't do different things, they do things differently (Albalaha)

Offline KungFuBac

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #373 on: July 26, 2021, 03:36:09 am »
Hi AsymBacGuy
Thx for your elaborate response in reply#369 above. I  agree/especially with the last 3-4 sentences.

"... The perfect plan would be to spot a betting line capable to get 7-10 all W sequences per shoe that must come out by a well higher degree of probability than what math values dictate.
Of course we need to wager two times each spot toward getting a more likely scenario.
And naturally whenever a shoe starts with a negative spot, we can't reach that aim.  ..."



Also , in the paragraph regarding the cockroach road(CR).

"... Summarizing, the cr is the best indicator about how much key cards are concentrated or diluted along any shoe.
Then it's up to us to assess whether a single or a series of  'key' results was/were mathematically shifted to prolong a b or r streak or to cut it off. ..."



I've read much of what u have written re: the CR road.

This is an area my skillset needs to improve.  I agree with much of your writings re: the CR road /its potential for  suggesting certain future events being more(or less) likely.

However, my difficulty is in being able to assign a specific(numerical value) on that perceived  increase(or decrease) probability % to a degree that would affect my decision prior to the very next event. Of course , ex post facto--Im 100% accurate just like everybody else at the table.  :)
Thx for writing on this topic.

 


Continued Success,
"There are many large numbers smaller than one."

Offline AsymBacGuy

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
    • View Profile
Re: Why bac could be beatable itlr
« Reply #374 on: July 28, 2021, 12:22:13 am »
Hi KFB and thanks!

If you want to beat this fkng game itlr you are in the right section. :-)

Whether cards would be so randomly distributed, the 7 WIAR situations will face the opposite losing counterpart and we can't expect to win anything.
At the actual live spots, this probability will be either diminished or endorsed by studying the first patterns.
Remember we need a moderate key card clumping to happen along any shoe to get the best of it, strong or too diluted clumps tend to produce too polarized and/or whimsical subsequent situations in either way.

Depending upon which random walk you choose to use, the appearance of streaks of certain lenght teach us that key cards are clumped at different speeds.

It's particularly helpful to know that when the average number of streaks of certain lenght per shoe is X,  odds are that itlr we'll get on average a higher amount of shoes showing more likely an inferior than superior number than X.

Therefore streaks appearing at the initial portions of the shoe must be considered as a key card clumping, especially whether such streaks are consecutively placed.
We know that portions of the shoe particularly rich of key cards more often than not tend to deny a moderate subsequent key card distribution as the key card/remaining cards ratio is hugely shifted toward the right. Meaning results will be more affected by short term undetectable variance.
 
Cockroach road.

This road is one of the best example why results are sensitive to probability after events and place selection tools both denying a perfect randomness.
And/or a flaw of the game, of course.

Few players follow this road, probably as it's visually more difficult to track than other d.r.'s or simply as it starts very late in the shoe.

Cockroach road is relying about the probability to get symmetrical (red spots) or asymmetrical (blue spots) taken at a 3-pace along the way.
It's the most volatile road we could track of, sometimes we'll get almost singles and doubles, at other occasions multiple consecutive long streaks show up.
It's this feature that could get us hints about how a shoe is distributed.

Since at this road the quite long asymmetrical and symmetrical situations tend to be more clustered than at other roads, we could infer that the remaining part of asym/sym single streaks tend to stay more isolated than clustered.
Therefore if 2+ tend to be followed by 2+, 1 should be followed by at least another 1.

Counterintuitive but it works.

So consider a given red or blue streak of certain lenght happening at cr. Wait until this streak had come out isolated (that is not followed by a perfect streak of the same opposite lenght).
Now bet toward getting another isolated b or r streak accordingly to the previous streak happened.
Just one time, even knowing that a fair percentage of shoes will provide a chain of isolated streaks.

Itlr the 1-1 vs 1-X situations will get a ridiculously low variance not fitting the fkng general values under normal circumstances.

But say casinos know this bet selection trying to get infinite isolated single streak patterns followed by consecutive streaks of the same lenght happening at cr.
Really? That's the perfect negation of statistical laws, and btw it's impossible to arrange cards to get this or that belonging to a specular plan for long and by a 3-paced interval.
What about other roads?

You can be 100% certain that some patterns will be more likely than others, giving a lesser fk about what math dictates.
Next time we'll see many other spots getting an astounding probability to appear, no matter how the s.tu.pi.d math experts keep to state.

as.   
Next to edge sorting it's me

Winners don't do different things, they do things differently (Albalaha)