BetSelection.cc

Forums => Baccarat Forum => Topic started by: alrelax on August 17, 2025, 11:23:32 PM

Title: Baccarat Shuffling Procedures and Reality
Post by: alrelax on August 17, 2025, 11:23:32 PM
There are three types of card shuffling preparation used.

One is basically old school and has been mostly phased out, except for possibly in some higher limit exclusive properties  and of course only on Macau style baccarat tables.  Which is unwrapping all eight decks of brand new factory sealed/wrapped decks of cards.  Discarding all jokers and the brand name 'ad' card.  Exposing them all face up and then piling them together, placing to the side.  Repeat for remaining 7 decks.  Wash all face down on the table extremely well.  Group back up into approximately one or two deck piles.  Manually shuffle.  Place against empty shoe and make straight.  Cut and burn as they still do.  NOTE:  At the end of the shoe if using this procedure, they would put the used and handled/mangled cards into a large zip lock style secured bag, write the table and game number on a label and two personnel would sign the bag. 

Another one is the machine shuffler that has two, eight deck shoes going for rotation.  Used both on Mini and Midi/Macau style baccarat.  Of course when it is Midi/Macau style, the shoe put into play would be immediately replaced with a new shoe to be shuffled while the current one is in play. 

Finally, we have the pre-shuffled deck arriving at the table in a clear and ID'd lock box.  These boxes come from an approved and legally compliant vendor that must adhere to state gaming rules and regulations, while being subjected to civil and criminal penalties for wrongdoings including collusion. 

NOTE:  I have witnessed some properties that 'mini shuffle' a machine shuffled shoe of cards coming out for play or a pre-shuffled vendor lock box.  A 'mini shuffle' is where the dealer will roughly breakdown the shoe of cards into approximately 6 or 8 piles and do a real quick manual shuffle without a wash. 

I have played them all for many many years.  They were all included everywhere I played, in excess of 50 B&M casino properties. 

One thing they all include at everywhere I have played hands down, is that once the shoe is ready for play the red/yellow cut card or some other color card is giving to a player to cut the shoe and then the shoe is cut and then the sections are repositioned front to back.  Also the first card is turned face up and the corresponding appropriate amount of cards are removed from the front of the shoe and burned.

With the unknown moving of the front to the back of a variable sized section of cards, as well as a variable amount of burned cards, there is no way it can stand as if the shoe was shuffled or set in any way, shape or form.  None whatsoever.

Yes that is a strong statement I am giving, but if you sincerely think about it you will realize it is such fallacy that is perpetrated on many of the forums accusing casinos of pre-setting shoes to trick or fool players, etc.  Or even alter the house advantages.

I have taken an extensive amount of time a few years ago and bought dozens of shoes of cards and sorted out several eight deck shoes myself.  I set up all kinds of events in series, in groups, in sections, within the shoes as well as setting up entire shoes. Like I said, I invested extensive time spent doing countless set ups of the decks and shoes.  Always comprising multiple decks within the shoe or nearly the entire shoe. I did a random cut and burn the appropriate amount of cards. Never did any sizable amounts of my set ups ever remain within those shoes when I played them out.

If it matters and for sense of definition, I set up the following.  Series of chop-chops, 1s and 2s, doubles, weak then clumping/strong, long streaks, etc., etc.  All kinds of scenarios in all kinds of orders and lengths.  Nothing held true.  As well, I set up varying lengths and sections of basically nothing and confusing mini patterns without substantial definable anything.  Those as well change significantly also. 

If you don't believe me, invest in 16 decks or even 32 decks of cards and set up 2, 3 or 4 shoes and spend hundreds of hours or so in your own research.  Simple!  Set up the shoes anyway you wish with or without patterns and trends, with non-beatable scenarios, etc.  Write it all down each and every hand what is supposed to happen.  Write down what actually happened.  Do it over and over and over.  You should come to the same conclusions I did. Once that deck is cut and repositioned and anywhere from 2 to 11 cards are removed, it totally changes everything with any possible set up of that shoe of cards.

Easy to perpetuate rumors and fallacies on the forums I agree.  Don't be lazy, do your own research. 


Title: Re: 3 Types of Shuffling Procedures
Post by: alrelax on August 21, 2025, 02:30:13 PM
Here is the New Jersey Admin Codd reference pre shuffling and vendor pre shuffled cards.  Other states all have similar civil and criminal admin gaming codes that casinos must follow.  Those of you that think there is a secret room where casino personnel are setting up shoes of pre shuffled cards, some with choppy, some with streaks, others with strange and unfollowable patterns/trends, better rethink your fallacy thinking. 

N.J. Admin. Code § 13:69E-1.18A - Pre-shuffled and pre-inspected cards

State Regulations

(a) In lieu of the card shuffling and inspection procedures to be followed at an open gaming table set forth in N.J.A.C. 13:69E-1.18, a casino licensee may elect to:

1. Pre-inspect and pre-shuffle cards prior to the delivery of the cards to an open gaming table; or
2. Use a licensed vendor to supply pre-shuffled and pre-inspected cards.

(b) If a casino licensee elects to pre-inspect and pre-shuffle cards, the process shall occur at a closed gaming table or another location approved by the Division and shall be performed by a dealer and verified by a casino supervisor with no concurrent supervisory responsibility for open gaming tables. The procedures required by (b)1 through 7 below shall be recorded by the surveillance department and each such recording shall be retained by the casino licensee for not less than seven days.

1. Upon receipt of the decks of cards pursuant to N.J.A.C. 13:69E-1.18(c)2, the dealer shall perform the procedures in (b)2 through 7 below independently for each batch of cards that will be sealed in a container, with the number of decks of cards in each batch being equal to the number of decks of cards required for the table game in which they are intended to be used.

2. The dealer shall visually inspect the back of each card to assure that it is not flawed, scratched or marked in any way that might compromise the integrity or fairness of the game.

3. The dealer shall then shuffle the cards, manually or using an approved automated shuffling device, in a manner permitted by the applicable rules governing the table game at which the cards will be utilized.

4. To ensure that there are no missing or extra cards, the dealer shall inspect the cards utilizing a machine approved by the Division. The machine shall issue a receipt that shall, at a minimum, include:

i. The manufacturer, model and serial number of the card inspection machine;

ii. The name or identification number of the dealer who operates the machine;

iii. The location at which the inspection is performed;

iv. The date and time of the inspection;

v. The manufacturer and type of cards, the number of decks, and the table game for which the cards are inspected;

vi. The result of the inspection and, if failed, the identification of any missing or extra card(s); and

vii. The number of the seal to be used on the clear container in which the cards will be placed pursuant to (b)7 below.

5. If the inspection fails, the casino licensee shall follow the procedures set forth in N.J.A.C. 13:69E-1.18.

6. Upon completion of the pre-inspection and pre-shuffling of the cards in the batch, the dealer and supervisor shall sign the receipt certifying that the cards were pre-inspected and pre-shuffled in accordance with this subsection.

7. For each batch of pre-inspected and pre-shuffled cards the dealer shall place the cards together with the receipt required by (b)4 above in a clear container that conforms to the requirements of N.J.A.C. 13:69E-1.18(f). The container shall be sealed with a pre-numbered label unique to such container. Procedures for the maintenance and security of unused seals, and the distribution, return and reconciliation of seals used on containers holding pre-inspected and pre-shuffled cards shall be detailed in the casino licensee's internal controls.

8. The sealed containers of cards shall be transported by a:

i. Table games supervisor to the gaming pit of the gaming tables where they will be utilized and either locked in the pit stand in accordance with N.J.A.C. 13:69E-1.18(c) or (d), or placed in a locked cabinet in the gaming pit, the keys to which shall be available only to table games supervisors and subject to sign-out and sign-in procedures; or

ii. Table games supervisor or a casino key employee designated in accordance with the provisions of N.J.A.C. 13:69E-1.18(c) and a casino security officer to an approved primary card storage area or poker card storage area where they shall be placed back into card inventory and segregated from cards that have not been pre-inspected and pre-shuffled. A record of the transport of the sealed containers of cards to the card storage area shall be maintained by the casino security department.

9. When cards are needed for play, each container of cards shall be delivered by a table games supervisor to an open gaming table. Upon delivery, the table games supervisor shall unseal the container, place the decks of cards on the gaming table in front of the dealer. The supervisor shall record on the receipt contained within the container, the date, time and shift that the container was opened, and the pit and table number where cards are to be used. Once the information has been recorded, the supervisor shall sign the receipt, and retain the receipt and container at the gaming table.
(c) If a casino licensee elects to use a licensed vendor to supply pre-inspected and pre-shuffled cards, the manufacturer shall:

1. Obtain approval from the Division for the automated shuffling device used to pre-shuffle cards; and

2. Implement a process for shuffling and packaging cards which shall, at a minimum, include:

i. Visual inspection of the back of each card to assure that it is not flawed, scratched or marked in any way that might compromise the integrity or fairness of the game;

ii. Verification that each package of cards contains the correct number and is constituted in accordance with the specific rules of the game the cards are intended for use;

iii. Inserting the cards in a package with a tamper-proof seal(s) that bears a conspicuous indication if the package has been opened. The exterior of the package shall indicate:

(1) The total number of decks contained within the package; and

(2) The game(s) the cards are intended for use; and

iv. Generation by the automated shuffling device in use, of a receipt to be inserted in the sealed package which shall include the information in (c)2iii(1) through (4) below:

(1) The total number of cards and decks contained within the package;

(2) The date and time the cards were shuffled and verified;

(3) Identification of the manufacturer's employee who performed the process in (c)2 above; and

(4) The manufacturer, model and serial number of the device used to shuffle the cards.

(d) Cards inspected and shuffled in accordance with (c) above shall be delivered in accordance with N.J.A.C. 13:69E-1.18, to an open gaming table in the manufacturer's sealed packaging. Prior to using the cards at a gaming table, a table games supervisor shall inspect the package for evidence of tampering. If there is evidence of tampering, all cards in the package shall not be used and the casino licensee shall follow the procedures set forth in N.J.A.C. 13:69E-1.18.

(e) Upon opening the package in (c) above, the table games supervisor shall record on the receipt contained within the package, the date and time that the package was opened, and the pit and table number where cards are to be used. Once the information has been recorded, the table games supervisor shall sign the receipt, place the cards on the table in front of the dealer, and retain the receipt and original package at the gaming table.

(f) For all pre-inspected and pre-shuffled cards, upon the initial use and patron request the dealer shall perform a strip or riffle shuffle of the cards and then cut the cards in the manner prescribed by the rules governing the particular table game.

(g) Upon removal from a gaming table, pre-inspected and pre-shuffled cards shall be placed in the original container or package as applicable, in which they were delivered to the table together with the receipt, and returned to the security department for inspection as required by N.J.A.C. 13:69E-1.18.

(h) The Division may, at any time, require a casino licensee to provide any container or package of pre-inspected and pre-shuffled cards.

Notes
N.J. Admin. Code § 13:69E-1.18A
Title: Re: 3 Types of Shuffling Procedures
Post by: alrelax on August 21, 2025, 02:38:37 PM
Besides from casinos pre-shuffling their own shoes, they can also purchase pre-shuffled vendor supplied shoes of cards and place within their own clear shoes to transport to the table for play. 

Here is what the offered product looks like from one vendor.
Title: Re: 3 Types of Shuffling Procedures
Post by: alrelax on September 28, 2025, 05:16:45 PM
Once again I wish to add a more detailed explanation of my writings. 

I scan the Internet, I listen at the casino and hear about shuffling acquisitions quite often.  Most of the talk since the auto sufflers came into play at the baccarat table, is that they are rigged, set for certain events to happen or not happen and can easily be manipulated by casino management.  As well, the pre-shuffled lock box of cards. 

I understand the concern. However, with my experience of researching the possibilities of set ups by an auto shuffler in the game of baccarat, there is no possible way whatsoever that could occur in baccarat and not touching upon anything possible in blackjack, poker, etc., or continuous shufflers in those other games.  No matter what was theoretically programmed it would all be nullified  when the shoe was started in the game of baccarat. 

Strong statement, yes I know. Why? Because of the following. Keep reading.

Play devils advocate here please. OK, if possible the auto shuffler sets up the shoes to benefit the casino with hard to follow anything, especially no streaks and noticeable chop patterns or providing hard to follow multiple hands. Fine. Now that very same set up has to be altered by the players before the shoe ever begins to deal its first hand out on the table.

Players cut those cards anywhere they so choose as long as the cut is approximately one deck in from the front and one deck in from the back. In my opinion, safest if it was set up would be approximately halfway.

Then those cards are once again manipulated against any possible set up by the burn. The burn will remove from 2 to 11 cards from the sequence that was existing.

Those two events will circumvent any possible set up that could have happened. Why? Because all previous card values in order (set up) would have been disturbed and out of their set up order once changed. The hand values would have been changed by that cut and burn and those unknown amount of cards burnt and repositioned to the rear of the shoe.

A third factor would also have to be taken into consideration which are in the prevention group, usually 14-20ish cards in the rear of the shoe being blocked off as well.

In baccarat each hand has way too many variables as to the outcome that is influenced by the subsequent point value to be add to it or taken away from it, with each sides second card or possible third card. With my research anything that is changed in the deck such as repositioning a group of multiple decks from front to back and then an unknown amount of up to 12 burn cards vanishing from the front, will disturb any possible sequence that was set up. There is no two ways about it.  However keep reading.

A couple of years back I spent weeks exploring this. I went to the dollar store and bought eight decks of cards. Shuffled and mixed them up all thoroughly. Set them up with all kinds of outcomes, streaks, chop chop, doubles and cuts after ties.  Probably those are the most often sought by most Baccarat Players IMO. Set those up with event trends of 7 to 13 times. Then did a cut, burn and hold back of about 14 to 20 cards in the rear.  Dealt out the cards. Nothing noticeably stuck the way I set it up. Did that well over 100 times. Then I moved on to other patterns and trends, such as long streaks of 11+ hands, ones and twos and ones and threes with other events as well.  Again, nothing stuck noticeably from the way I set it up each time.

That in itself should have been my proof as to an auto shuffler would have its set up nullified if it was creating one or was capable of such a possibility. However, I also did hard to follow wagering on various types of shoes with all kinds of 'player's nightmares' if you were on the players side or bankers side type of Wagering person.  Nothing noticeably stuck consistently in that either.  Also I set up, if you were only wagering on the fourth or fifth IAR to cut, if you were only wagering a cut after a tie or a natural, etc. Once again, everything I set up did not come out as set up. Although those types of events did happen throughout the shoe, but they were noticeably by the card values played out in another visually and physically appearing order and they were not the ones that I set up that were repositioned in another part of the shoe after the cut.  Meaning say it cut after a 4th iar bankers and I set it up to cut that way with a natural 8 on the players side and a 5 total on the bankers side.  The way it came out was players 2 face cards and bankers a 6, players flopped the third card of 8 or 9. 

So point being, in my opinion through research and experience, there is no possible physical way an auto shuffler can set up and rig a shoe of Baccarat game cards. 

I am not (NOT) going to enter into any argument about the game of Baccarat being random or not.  The baccarat shoe, once set, after shuffling, cut, burn and rear card placed, is NOT random, period.  It is set to produce a finite order of approximately 80 hands (for 8 deck games) and cannot be changed in anyway, shape or form.  It is your skill to figure out what that shoe will produce and when it will.  Each shoe has to be independent of the previously dealt ones and the subsequent ones.

Once again, easy to perpetuate rumors and fallacies on the forums I agree.  Don't be lazy, do your own research rather than just reading about a few people writing their theoretical negativity and believing it.