Good thoughts VLS. "it's worth remembering how much small wins can compound over time, too..."

A tiny compounding increment can really get the snow ball rolling downhill. One can find alot of good intel on compounding by studying Euler(or just thoroughly examine ones properties' amortization schedule).

In my opinion one should utilize some form of compounding in every thing we do at the tables. I compound every winning wager(sometimes not very much). We never know if our winning streak will occur (X current wager placement/immediate W streak , X shoe section, x shoe, X the day, or x the week, month,...etc).


Thx VLS as I  always value your thoughts(especially on MM and bet sizing). I wish you had more time to comment more often as you have a lot of expertise. I've read alot on your roulette site.



May the wind be at your back throughout the new year,kfb

Thx Asym/appreciate u taking the time to elaborate.

I've enjoyed the discussion with Whatswhats. I like your examples  on the 3/3+  with your Asym/Sym context. I know several players that look at your 3/3+(though with a slight twist). I will comment more on the 3/3+ as I think its an important topic.

    I like that and also find other specific placements EV+(Especially when we can find >=2 EV+ bet placements meeting at the same junction at the same time. that's where Im more likely to deploy my higher-pressed wagers.


"...This finding (there are quite more of them) emphasizes the importance of studying shoes coming out from the same source and that around the globe there are very acute players trying to get a kind of an edge whatever intended as the person we've met during our sessions..."

    I try to profile each casino I play. One may be surprised as it seems casinos have slightly different shuffling procedures. Even casinos within the same chain. I do not know why sometimes but the data doesn't lie. Maybe its just Variance-of-shoe-shufle. One of my casinos has been generating the same profile for almost 8 years. Even if I never figure out WHY(I can still take advantage of this profile).


"...It's way more interesting to assess that this finding promotes an unsound math plan as all bets are placed at P side..."

    Good point. It is my opinion that although P vs B will approach 50% it is the dispersion of results that create this placement on P(that u suggest above). It seems P has a slightly differently personality (vs B) in how it disperses (primarily around the 1iar and 2iar).

   

"...Shoes are coming out from the same shuffling machine brand, even if working at different casinos (!).

That's not the only finding promoting a kind of univocal betting placement, just one of the easiest.

Unfortunately (and probably this is a possible added value of it) a nearly half of the shoes dealt are unplayable at least for this specific attack. Then only one bet is suggested per every playable shoe..."

    I concur/ feel it would be good training for a player to set in fromt of two consecutive shoes taking notes for bet placement(Yet not make a single wager). Patience/ Discipline coupled with MM is the ticket my friends.


Continued Success,

You didn't explain in that post what was for you ASYM/SYM pattern

But then everyone can have their ASYM/sum pattern so it's okay, mine are a tweaked version of what you explain some times ago, (tweaked for me then didn't know if it's better or not)

I created a spreadsheet where I can track simultaneously the 4 road with all the result of mine pattern ASYM/sum situation etc..

What you say is creating a random strategy with a random walk so random+random

So didn't take the result from a single road but mix multiple road together that theorically and pratically when we bet the result are always 2 so maths say that, and isn't important what happen before etc but in this case we are creating a game in the game so in pratically mix that multiple road with a random walk and the asym/sym concept with max 2 bet per trigger (I personally use multiple virtual player trigger so can happen that I can bet just one time per trigger) mix this with multiple road, is effectively give us a lower volatility?

Because at the end for me but I think for who make this as a real business the goal is always get lower volatility, every concept every strategy every ideas on this job for baccarat / even chance is always to get low volatility.

A little more regarding the table games in California and the lawsuit over it.

The California Department of Justice is advancing regulations that would prohibit card rooms from offering modified versions of blackjack and other banked card games, aiming to close a long-debated loophole that allows "player-dealers" systems.
The proposed rules could end decades of friction between tribal casinos and card rooms over how state gaming laws are interpreted and enforced.

Under current practice, card rooms in California are barred from offering games in which players compete directly against the house. However, a system using "player-dealers" provided by Third-Party Providers of Proposition Player Services (TPPPPS) has allowed establishments to host modified versions of blackjack and baccarat.

The DOJ has stated that these modified versions differ from traditional house-banked games only in name, suggesting that the structure still functions as a direct competition between player and dealer.

An economic analysis commissioned by the state projects significant financial consequences if the regulations are enacted. The Standardized Regulatory Impact Assessment (SRIA) prepared by Berkeley Economic Advising and Research estimated potential losses of $464 million for card rooms statewide, while tribal casinos could see revenue gains of $232 million.

The SRIA also forecasted that card rooms would lose 364 full-time jobs annually over the next 10 years. These figures have raised concerns among local business leaders and municipal governments that depend on gaming-related tax revenue.

Club One Casino, which relocated to Granite Park in 2021 following the pandemic shutdown, employs 250 workers and contributes roughly $1 million annually to Fresno's general fund. The casino offers poker and modified blackjack games such as Spanish 21.5 and Pure 21.5. A similar gaming setup operates at The 500 Club Casino, situated on the Clovis-Fresno border.

"It's a competitive overreach by the tribal owners," said Kyle Kirkland, president of the California Gaming Association and owner of Club One Casino in Fresno, in a Fresno Bee report. "They don't like the fact that card rooms are competing with them. So they're pressuring the attorney general."

Kirkland said table games represent roughly 50% of Club One's revenue. "If we can't offer the table games, that's 50% of our revenue. If you take 50% out of your home budget, you're going to feel it and probably have to move," he said. "So this proposal, it would be fatal for card rooms. That's not good for our employees or people."

Critics have also warned that the proposed rules would "significantly cripple municipalities that heavily rely on the tax revenue for community programs such as public safety projects and senior programs," according to Casino Beats.

Card room employees and supporters held a protest outside Attorney General Rob Bonta's Fresno office on Thursday, saying the regulations could result in hundreds of job losses.

Kirkland noted that card rooms contribute to city funds and support nonprofit organizations. "Eliminating these card games from card rooms would have a big impact on the people of Fresno and Clovis, and especially other communities that are highly dependent on card rooms," he said. "There seems to be a concerted effort to eliminate tax-paying card rooms when most people might not realize how much we contribute to the community."

The proposal follows a Sacramento Superior Court ruling that dismissed a lawsuit brought by several tribal casinos against card rooms. The tribes argued that the card rooms' modified blackjack and baccarat games violated state gaming law.

The suit was filed under Senate Bill 549, a 2024 measure that authorized tribes to pursue legal action against card rooms over alleged violations. Tribal operators are expected to appeal the decision.

With the lawsuit dismissed, the DOJ now faces pressure to act through regulation. A state-commissioned impact report estimates that restricting card room operations could reduce patronage by about 50% and cause additional losses in municipal tax revenue.
"Right now we have a fair balance," said Capitol Casino worker Chris Linger. "Tribal casinos have slot machines and full-scale gaming, while card rooms offer table games that help sustain local economies."

(I have received inquiries reference the California (non-Indian Tribe casinos) gaming rules, where the gamblers themselves are the 'player-dealers' and if no one desires to act as a 'player-dealer' than there are corporation bankers at each table.  That is why in all the new YouTube videos popping up, you will see the casino dealer collecting or paying the wins out of stacks of Chips either always on first base or last base.  Those are where the corporation bankers sit.  All the casino does is collect a collection fee from each hand.  And unless it has been changed since I last been out there a few years ago, each wager pays a $1.00 per hundred ($100.00) wager to the house, the casino.  That is no matter the out come, win or lose.)

Rules & How to Play
Type of Game

The game of EZ Baccarat Panda 8 utilizes a player-dealer position and is a California game. The position shall be offered systematically and continuously in a clockwise manner around the table after every two hands. The player-dealer shall collect all losing wagers, pay all winning wagers, and may not win or lose more than the original amount wagered. Once the player-dealer's wager has been exhausted, the wagers not covered by the player-dealer shall be returned to the respective players. The gambling enterprise does not participate in the actual play of the game and has no interest in the outcome of the play.

Object of the Game

The object of the game is to assemble two hands of two or three cards with an accumulated point value as close to nine as possible.

Description of Deck & Number of Decks Used

The game is played using a standard 52-card deck and no jokers. Cards will be dealt using a multiple deck shoe. A minimum of three decks and a maximum of eight decks shall be used during the play of the game.

Card Values & Hand Rankings

The value of each card used in EZ Baccarat Panda 8, shall be as follows: picture cards (king, queen, jack) and 10's have a value of zero, an ace has a value of one, and all other cards have their face value. When the total numerical value of the cards equals ten or more, only the right-hand digit (numeric count) is considered. The ranking of hands for EZ Baccarat Panda 8, in order from highest to lowest rank, shall be:

HAND DEALT    HAND REQUIREMENTS
Natural 9    A two card hand that has a value of nine. A Natural 9 shall only be achieved when the first two cards dealt to a hand is valued at nine, according to the rules above.
Natural 8    A two card hand that has a value of eight. A Natural 8 shall only be achieved when the first two cards dealt to a hand is valued at eight.
Nine or Eight    A three card hand that has a value of nine or eight.
Seven through Zero    A two or three card hand that has a value of seven, six, five, four, three, two, one or zero.
Description of Table Used & Total Number of Seated Positions

The game shall be played on either a standard blackjack table that accommodates up to seven players and a player-dealer position for a total of eight seated positions or a standard baccarat table that accommodates up to thirteen players and a player-dealer position for a total of fourteen seated positions. Within each betting area for each seated player, there shall be five separate betting spaces specifically designated for five separate wagers; the player line, the banker line, the Tie Bet, the Panda 8 wager, and the Dragon 7 Bonus Bet. Each betting space at the table has a fixed amount for wagering limits defining the minimum and maximum amounts that may be wagered. Players must bet at least the table minimum. Back-line betting is permitted.

Method Used to Determine Action & Distribution of Cards

The game utilizes an action button to determine which player receives first action on their wager. The second card dealt to the banker line determines the position of the action button. The player-dealer position is not counted when determining where the action button shall be placed. The other seats, in clockwise rotation, starting with the player to the left of the house dealer and continuing left to right, respectively represent the other number. When determining where the action button will be placed, cards will hold the following values: Ace is one, 2 through 9 have their face value, jack is eleven, queen is twelve, and king is thirteen.

Dealing Procedures & Round of Play

At the start of a game a player is offered the player-dealer position. Once accomplished, the house dealer shall wait for each player to make their wager in accordance with the table limits.

Each player has the following options when placing their wager(s):
The player line which pays 1 to 1;
The banker line which pays 1 to 1;
The Tie Bet, which pays 8 to 1;

If a player placed a wager on either the player line or the banker line, that player may place a wager on the Dragon 7 Bonus Bet, which pays 40 to 1.

If a player placed a wager on either the player line or the banker line, that player may place a wager on the Panda 8, which pays 25 to 1.

Once all wagers are placed, the house dealer deals one card to the right and one card to the left, one by one in rotation, until each hand has a total of two cards each. All cards are dealt face-up. The hand to the left of the house dealer is a community hand that belongs to those that placed a bet on the banker line. The hand to the right of the house dealer is a community hand that belongs to those that placed a bet on the player line. The player's hand is resolved first and then the banker's hand is resolved. The hand that is closest to nine wins. After the house dealer delivers the first two cards to both the Player line and Banker line, the following Baccarat rules are followed.

The player's hand must stand when the hand is valued at 6 through 9, and must hit when the hand is valued at 5 or less.
If the player's hand stands, then the dealer hand hits on a total of 5 or less.

If the player's hand hits for a complete hand then the banker's hand hits using the following rules:
If the banker's hand total is 3, then the banker's hand is dealt a third card unless the third card dealt to the player's hand was an 8.

If the banker's hand total is 4, then the banker's hand is dealt a third card unless the third card dealt to the player's hand was a 0, 1, 8, or 9.

If the banker's hand total is 5, then the banker's hand is dealt a third card if the third card dealt to the player's hand was 4, 5, 6, or 7.

If the banker's hand total is 6, then the banker's hand is dealt a third card if the third card dealt to the player's hand was a 6 or 7.

The following chart shows when the banker hits (H) or stands (S) according to the rules above:

Player's Third Card
0    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9
7    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S
6    S    S    S    S    S    S    H    H    S    S
5    S    S    S    S    H    H    H    H    S    S
4    S    S    H    H    H    H    H    H    S    S
3    H    H    H    H    H    H    H    H    S    H
2    H    H    H    H    H    H    H    H    H    H
1    H    H    H    H    H    H    H    H    H    H
0    H    H    H    H    H    H    H    H    H    H


The house dealer must use the "house way" when a player requests the house dealer to play an additional wager. House way hands shall be set as follows: player hand hits on five or below and stands on six or more.

How Each Wager Wins, Loses or Pushes

Once both hands have been completed, according to the guidelines above, the player's wagers are settled. The following shall apply for each possible outcome when determining the winner. The player- dealer shall pay and collect all wagers accordingly:
The player-dealer shall pay all winning player line wagers made by players when the player hand is closer to nine than the banker hand.

The player-dealer shall pay all winning banker line wagers made by players when the banker hand is closer to nine than the player hand.

The player-dealer shall collect all losing player line wagers made by players when the banker hand is closer to nine than the player hand.

The player player-dealer shall collect all losing banker line wagers made by players when the player hand is closer to nine than the banker hand.

Tie Bet

For each seated position, there shall be one separate and specifically designated area for the placement of a Tie Bet wager. A player may place a Tie Bet wager even if he/she has not also placed either a Player line wager or a Banker line wager prior to the initial deal.

The player-dealer shall pay all winning Tie Bet wagers when the total of the player's hand and the total of the banker's hand are equal.

The player-dealer shall collect all losing Tie Bet wagers when the total of the player's hand and the total of the banker's hand are not equal.

Backline betting is not permitted on the Tie Bet wager.
See the collection rate schedule for restrictions on the amount that may be wagered on the Tie Bet and any collection fees that may be taken.

The Tie Bet takes into account the total value of the player's hand and the total value of the banker's hand, regardless of the number of cards each hand has, at the completion of the round. Each hand must be played according to the guidelines above. In the event that the player's hand and the banker's hand are of the same value (tie), the tie bet wager shall win. In the event that the player's hand and the banker's hand are not of the same value, the player-dealer shall win the tie bet wager.

All winning Tie Bet wagers shall be paid 8 to 1.

Wagers are collected or paid, to the extent that the player-dealer's wager covers. Once the player- dealer's wager has been exhausted, the wagers not covered by the player-dealer shall be returned to the players.

Dragon 7 Bonus Bet

For each seated position, there shall be one separate and specifically designated area for the placement of a Dragon 7 Bonus Bet wager. A player may only place a Dragon 7 Bonus Bet wager if they have also placed a wager on either the player line or on the banker line prior to the initial deal.

Back-line betting is permitted on the Dragon 7 Bonus Bet.

See the collection rate schedule for restrictions on the amount that may be wagered on the Dragon 7 Bonus Bet and any collection fees that may be taken.

If the banker hand has a point value of seven using three cards and the player's hand has a value of six or less, regardless of the number of cards, the Dragon 7 Bonus Bet wins. The Dragon 7 Bonus Bet shall lose on all other outcomes.

All winning Dragon 7 Bonus Bet wagers shall be paid 40 to 1.
The player-dealer shall pay all winning Dragon 7 Bonus Bet wagers and shall collect all losing Dragon 7 Bonus Bet wagers. Once the player-dealer's wager has been exhausted, the wagers not covered by the player-dealer shall be returned to the players.

Panda 8 Bet

For each seated position, there shall be one separate and specifically designated area for the placement of a Panda 8 Bet wager. A player may only place a Panda 8 Bet wager if they have also placed a wager on either the player line or on the banker line prior to the initial deal.

Back-line betting is permitted on the Panda 8 Bet.

See the collection rate schedule for restrictions on the amount that may be wagered on the Panda 8 Bet and any collection fees that may be taken.

If the player hand has a point value of eight using three cards and the banker's hand has a value of seven or less, regardless of the number of cards, the Panda 8 Bet wins. The Panda 8 Bet shall lose on all other outcomes.

All winning Panda 8 Bet wagers shall be paid 25 to 1.

The player-dealer shall pay all winning Panda 8 Bet wagers and shall collect all losing Panda 8 Bet wagers. Once the player-dealer's wager has been exhausted, the wagers not covered by the player- dealer shall be returned to the players.

Equipment Used

Rules & How to Play EZ Baccarat Panda 8

EQUIPMENT USED

EZTRAK™: Baccarat Edition is an LCD-based hand tracking system that provides players with valuable statistical data, enabling them to calculate trends and percentages for any type of Baccarat table games including the very popular EZ Baccarat™.

Key Features

Table game min and max amounts

Numbers and percentages for Player, Banker, Tie Bets, Dragon 7 and Panda 8 bets
The occurrence of Naturals
The number of hands per shoe
Previous shoe statistics
A timer (optional) that automatically closes all bets for the hand, speeding up hands per hour.
Collection Rates

For table limits and collection rate schedules for the game of EZ Baccarat Panda 8 please refer to the approval of all California Games Collection rates (BGC ID: GEGR-001174).

Table Layout

(Pic of standard EZ Bac table felt)

Good description of the game indeed.

Especially about the "camaraderie" topic...

as. 

Without a doubt, BAC is the greatest casino game that cannot be touched by all the others. The game is elite and easily transcends countless times throughout each shoe into superstations, individual beliefs and unmatched gambling depths  few can even grasp unless they are experienced Bac Players.

The game is interpreted widely different but most all players, admittedly or not. The situational aspect of playing BAC puts the highest majority of wagering decisions on a specific set of circumstances rather than being universal, such as in blackjack and a lot of other table games.

BAC players are most of the times joyfully brought together by winning hands and as well, brought down together by losing hands. Hands that were wagered on by both bankers and players bets, are visually divided with joy and sadness when the winning side is revealed.  Simultaneously, both visually and even physically. 

There are numerous types of BAC players, those that are outgoing as well as totally submissive. Those that are loud as well as perfectly quiet. Those that play long hours as well as those that play a fast hit and run style. Those that believe in flat betting and as well, those that parlay without a second thought. There are those that relentlessly continue session after session attempting previous loss recouping without really ever winning as well as, those that use a small portion of their bank rolls with a strong parlay schedule experiencing a much higher cash out profitability rate overall. There are those that play with complete frustration and emotional distraction as well as, those that play with pure passion and clear frame-of-mind.

BAC is a game of wonder in so many ways. I guarantee you that. Many claim it is pure luck and yet many claim it's strictly skill. Many claim it is random while others claim it is not random. BAC is a game of extreme beliefs without any doubt whatsoever. BAC has quick wins for many and quick losses for others.  And those that do not win or lose quickly, have a habit of getting grinded down more often than not.  And, so many continuously wonder why they cannot repeat their wins they have experienced previously in their upcoming wagering attempts just completed. As well, so many also wonder why they lost after they did not (wagering opposite) wager the way they played during their previous losing sessions. Like I said, a game of wondering in the ultimate definition of the word lived out so many times throughout each shoe played.

One can win with the highest point value hand in BAC as well as a zero point value hand.  One can win when all others lose the hand and as well, one can win the hand while losing a certain portion of it, because of the various side wagers available at most tables.

The highest majority of players these days have no idea about the history of BAC prior to the EZ BAC and mini BAC tables from 2000 and up. What I am referring to was the big tables where there were three dealers, two were sitting acting as the table's Bankers with separate chip racks each, side-by-side, each one for their seven seats of players on each end of the table. One dealer known as a Coupier, standing whom the cards were passed to after pulled from the shoe, exposed or unexposed by each gambler themselves. The shoe traveled from player to player and remained with each player as long as a winning bankers hand was made, no matter which side they were wagering on. The big table also had one floor person on each end of the table as well. It was a totally different game, different attitudes, different personalities, different set of patience, a much different level of play and much stronger sense of camaraderie amongst the players overall.  Shoes normally were in the 3 hour range to complete and a shuffle was easily 20 minutes. 

Talking about camaraderie, there was normally unwritten camaraderie amongst players on each side of the table to wager the same side. Unlike today's atmosphere so commonly brought forth, how others can influence losing hands.  Back at the big tables that wasn't a general thought at all. The thought as to a gambler themselves causing a hand to be lost was kinda far fetched if I recall.  It was blamed on the shoe not producing what we thought, or we were just out of sync, or we just simply chose the wrong side. 

BAC even more so than other table games host a wide variety of its players. From restaurant and nail shop workers to the owners themselves. From competing casino Bac Dealers and Floor Personnel or an occasional host from other properties. To a high school dropout working at a McDonald's who out-plays an accomplished college graduate structural engineer most every time. Young and elderly, white, Asian, Latino and black all can be found at the BAC tables, anytime anywhere.

BAC the game were bystanders are in amazement when a two card 18 beats two face cards on the opposite side.  And those same bystanders comment on how the heck a blackjack loses to two cards on the opposite side comprised of just a seven and a two.
Additionally the same bystanders witness a 10 and a five on the players side and a 10 and a six on the bankers side. They see a six drawn for the players side and then a six drawn for the bankers side. Right about that time they shrug their shoulders and walk away.

Priceless, IMO.

The game of BAC.

Quote from: AsymBacGuy on January 28, 2026, 03:48:21 AMNext week we'll see how to exploit at a maximum level the AS/S patterns feature.

as.

Waiting for this, so interesting read and then elaborate that mixed with mine idea.

This finding (there are quite more of them) emphasizes the importance of studying shoes coming out from the same source and that around the globe there are very acute players trying to get a kind of an edge whatever intended as the person we've met during our sessions.

It's way more interesting to assess that this finding promotes an unsound math plan as all bets are placed at P side.

Shoes are coming out from the same shuffling machine brand, even if working at different casinos (!).

That's not the only finding promoting a kind of univocal betting placement, just one of the easiest.

Unfortunately (and probably this is a possible added value of it) a nearly half of the shoes dealt are unplayable at least for this specific attack. Then only one bet is suggested per every playable shoe.
Needless to say and since it's an unsound math strategy, it cannot work at other shoe productions.

More later.

as. 

Thanks for the reminder!

Along with the no stop-win policy, it's worth remembering how much small wins can compound over time, too.

(Continued success stacks up when compounding)

Cheers! 🥂