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Messages - Eight Iron

#1
Alrelax's Blog / Re: How Baccarat Came To Vegas......
October 14, 2019, 02:11:59 PM
Tony Renzoni introduced the game to the US, when brought the game to the Sands from Cuba, after the revolution.  His book ?Renzoni on Baccarat? includes his gambling philosophy and discusses his experience running a casino in Cuba.

The book is out of print, but I purchased an old copy on Amazon.

Some of what is in the book is included in this thread:

https://betselection.cc/bally's-blog/wise-words-from-tony-renzoni-a-professional-baccarat-player/
#2
Baccarat Forum / Re: Dr Tom's baccarat system
August 27, 2019, 05:59:03 PM
Quote from: cogger on July 23, 2019, 05:48:07 PM
I'm glad I did my due diligence before purchasing and found this thread.

Found this posted elsewhere:

For those who need an opinion on Dr. Tom's miracle method, here's a testimonial (a real one) from one of his students...

Full message here caught on YouTube before being deleted... :D:D:D


I. DR. TOM BOCH?S FRAUD & BREAKING THE LAW (in a fairly unique and partially well thought out way) I'M SORRY BUT DR. TOM IS COMMITTING SERIOUS FRAUD. THIS VIDEO IS FRAUDULENT AND the Courses are Fraudulent and without any scientifically proven merit whatsoever. A lawsuit is being put together shortly after the posting of this video b/c many people are getting hurt. As an extremely dissatisfied student of Doctor Tom who forced him to give me a partial refund b/c it was clear from my perspective that he had already spent most of the $4500 I gave him in a period of less than 12 hours from day one of training to day 2. THIS IS SERIOUS. PLEASE STAY AWAY FROM DR. TOM. Read below and see why I told Dr. Tom to stop selling this fraudulent piece of information to the public. I HAVE A TON OF EVIDENCE to back my assertions based on the more than a dozen assertions where Tom either lied, or changed his system(s) on the fly right in front of me, ADMITTED to me (accidentally) that his original $750 Home Study Course was essentially garbage BUT that his Hybrid system was great, trying to flip me into another used car lol. Like I said, a lawsuit is forthcoming for the following reasons: 1. I would like to get the rest of my money back, plus wasted expenses that he forced me to expend. 2. I would like to help other students / people get the rest of their money back from Tom. 3. I would like to protect future potential clients of Dr. Tom from being taking for a very expensive ride.

II. KINKS IN Dr. TOMS PERSONA He?s got a great ?Aw Shucks, I?m just a sweet old man that wants to help people? and ?I?m a real straight forward genuine guy on YouTube & on the phone, & in person?. - Don?t be upset, he fooled me here too. Really well I might add. Very well-rehearsed salesman. Once I saw everything and got the full picture over the 2 days, I began to question Tom on many of these discrepancies and his responses were quite poor, somewhat manipulative, and were meant to throw off more ignorant AND desperate people who don't know better or don't have basic street smarts. Towards the end of the second day, the whole thing devolved into me reprimanding / admonishing Dr. Tom for what he was doing to people. At one point I thought he was near bursting into tears b/c I think I was the first person in a very long time to show him the reality of what he was doing AND HOW he was seriously hurting people.

III. TOM EMBARRASSES HIMSELF AT THE CASINO Listen to this next part which is hilarious at the Maryland Live Casino: His performance at the Maryland live Casino was equally bad. In fact, IT WAS ATROCIOUS. Not because of losing money b/c he only does ?Virtual? lol, BUT because he had NO IDEA THAT the dealers and shuffle master machines were creating continuous decks, instead of individual / independent shoes of 6-8 decks that are not being recycled, WHICH renders his system completely useless BECAUSE it is 100% based on the history of previous outcomes in the shoe. THEN HE said, he almost never goes to the Live but that?s not true AND LATER he accidentally admitted he was at the same casino only recently with an all-star student. I HAD TO POINT IT OUT TO HIM. He had no idea and accidentally admitted that he was at the same exact table with another one of his "ALL STAR SUPER SUCCESSFUL" students, and they both did poor and he couldn't figure out why that was UNTIL I pointed it out to him that HIS SYSTEM WAS TOTALLY USELESS at the style of baccarat being played at the table he took me to. LOLOL. I mean you're the professional?guy! You?re the instructor. How idiotic is that? Someone tell me please? LMAO.

IV. BACK AT MY HOTEL ROOM THAT I WASTED 3 NIGHTS ON PLUS 10 HRS IN DRIVING + Several hundreds of dollars? He keeps telling me about these other students and all this (garbage) documentation of other successful students BUT THEN he accidentally tells me that many of those students are ALSO ?Virtual? betting, AND they are NOT even using HIS system in the manner in which he designed it to work. LMAO They do variations, LOL. Which is to say either A. They don?t believe in it OR B. As long as Dr. Tom gets paid he?ll say anything under the sun to make you feel like you can win with his system on a consistent basis. He began to curl up and respond somewhat like a child that was caught lying / stealing. It was truly sad to see a 72-year-old man caught red handed like a child. Part of his defense / shtick is that he's an old man. Like he's looking for sympathy and basically his mindset is "I tried" "I gave you useful tips.... sooo just let me keep the money okay?" That?s how he does things. ALL OF THE "USEFUL" Tips are either: A. Common knowledge. B. Common Sense. C. Easily obtained with just a few searches on google about gambling / betting / money management. Moreover, he doesn't even really know the history of baccarat very well. AND he has said that his system will work on craps and roulette, only later to WALK BACK that statement. The things that he said and did were so so pathetic. So much so that I began to feel great emotion and empathy for him, and I wanted to help him. I kept asking him how much money he had as opposed to how much money he needed? I really wanted to A. have him create a REAL system OR b. help him turn his system into something legitimate b/c as it stands, neither of his systems are proven in anyway, b/c it could help many people. I offered to assist him many times. He even told me what he needed for assistance I guess to throw me off. since that time, I have contacted Dr. Tom and he has not called me back and not taken any of my calls or responded to any of my texts. I'm sorry to say, like a little snake oil salesman hiding in the dark RUNNING FROM THE TRUTH OF a. What he has already done hurting many many people, b. What he CURRENTLY DOES WHICH IS HURT MANY PEOPLE, AND c. WILL CONTINUE TO DO, WHICH IS HURT MANY PEOPLE Like a degenerate gambler, he WILL NOT STOP. He WILL HURT YOU AND YOUR FAMILY....AND I fully expect him to try and lie his way out it by saying he's an old broken man with some illness, OR he has dementia, or some other lie to justify in his mind, WHY AND HOW he has the right to hurt me AND the rest of you. The testimonials are from people who fall under a few possible scenarios: A. Extremely lucky to have entered into a few shoes at the absolute right time, WHICH the N.O.R. betting system (or any other) would serve them through the process of surviving or making a few bucks on a shoe. The N.O.R. system is stuff also. It is just a basic form of logic in betting which if there is 3 or more bankers or players in a row, THEN bet it. If it chops / switches back and forth from player and banker, THEN bet that anticipated switch. OR he is paying them, OR bartering for them, OR they are completely falsified altogether. I EVEN OFFERED TO ASSIST him in improving the program into something real b/c it was not science based. It was not mathematically tested against ANYTHING other than few shoes and some good fortune AND ALSO eliminating anything related to bad shoes. There were no continuous shoes over a 4, 8, or 12hr period. There was no set 3-5 days at any particular casino. None of it, and if there was anything close to it, he couldn?t prove it one way other the other but his true dark character rang true pretty early that?s for sure. BUT as I told him, he had extremely limited data that was mostly 2nd hand from other people doing all kinds of crazy variations of his system and getting lucky based on the 50/50 principle. NO LEGITIMATE TESTING WHATSOEVER. Only cherry-picking information that suited his needs. There WERE SO MANY DISCREPENCIES it?s unbelievable. AND there is no way he can cover it all up! NO WAY AT ALL. The evidence is beyond damning Dr. Tom. It?s a literal slam dunk in court. LOL. He does AND WILL say anything to cover the fact that his system is NO BETTER THAN you going on your own and betting with any sort of logical and disciplined money management betting system. IT'S A FABRICATION It has crossed the line beyond borderline fraudulent and is playing the odds against all of us based on the reality that the odds of winning a hand is essentially 50 50 of Player or Banker. So, no matter what method you decide to use in life to bet anything in baccarat, you always have a 50% chance of being right OR wrong. Tom admits to having lost all kinds of money on gambling and different betting systems for 40+ years, bla blab bla. BUT WHAT HE DOESN?T TELL YOU?. Is that he is winning all his money back?.BY STEALING FROM ALL OF US. That?s his solution to being a degenerate typical losing gambler. TAKING OUR MONEY?. Is HIS SOLUTION. P.S. * Also I would like to thank you Dr. Tom for being such a great guy and buying me lunch 2 times WITH MY MONEY. LOL. (and that Costco protein bar. What a guy!) Is that worth $4500 Dr. Tom? P.P.S. For those of you who want to get your money back OR at least stop Dr. Tom from hurting other people. As of right now, put your true testimonials in the comments of his videos and please contact me through YouTube, and be safe out there.
#3
I saw this:

BPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBP  (28)

and this...

BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB  (22)

Real cards. 
#4
Quote from: 8OR9 on March 26, 2019, 11:06:56 PM
From what I heard from some Vegas old timers was that Oscar was a real person named Oscar.

Oscar was first mentioned in a book written in the mid sixties, that I have.  The book described his system and said he provided a hand written log of his sessions that showed he never lost a session.

His starting bet was $1.  It is possible he never lost a session with it.

I did a run for OG on WinCraps using a real casino dice roll file of 55K rolls.  I bet the Don't Pass only, which wins at the same 49.3% rate as the Player in Baccarat.

Starting with a $5 unit on the DP and no odds, the run ended +15K, or 3,000 units after 55K rolls.  Highest bet was 460 units, or $2,300.
#5
Quote from: Albalaha on March 17, 2017, 10:24:53 PM
Oscar Grind is a proven failure way to play. Do not waste your time.

You are right.  Much risk, and no advantage over flat betting.

I tried Oscar?s Grind on these shoes, from bead plate photos posted by Al Relax.  Used a 25 unit loss limit.

"Mixed" is the bet selection I flat bet with. I tried it here using OG.


BPBBBBPBPBPPPPPPBPBPBBBPBBPPBBPPBPBPPPPPPPPPPB

Betting P only, ended +13 units.  Max bet 5 units. Lowest BR was -6 units
Betting B only, ended -22 units.  Max bet 4 units. Lowest BR was - 25 units.
Mixed, ended +14 . Max bet 6 units. Low BR was -4.


PBBPPPBBPPBBPPBPBPPPBPPPBPPBPBPPBPBPBPBBPPPBPBPBPBPPPPPBBBBBPPBPPB

Betting only P, ended +18 units. Max bet was 2 units.  Lowest BR was -1 unit.
Betting only B, ended -25 units.  Max bet 23 units.  Lowest BR was -25 units.
Mixed ended +17. Max bet 11 units.  Lowest BR was -22 units.


PBBBPPBBPBBPBPBPBPBBBBBBPBBBBBBBPPBBPPBPPBBBBBPPPBPPBBBBPBPPBPPPBBPPPPBB

Betting only P, ended -25 units. Max bet 1 unit.  Lowest BR was -25 units.
Betting only B, ended +22 units.  Max bet 4 units.  Lowest BR was -1 unit
Mixed ended -25 units. Max bet 11 units.  Lowest BR was -25 units.


PBBBBBPBBPPBBBPPPBPPBBBPBPBPPPBPBBBBPPPPBBBPPBBPPBPPBPBPPPPPBPPP

Betting only P, ended +16 units.  Max bet 6 units.  Lowest BR was -14 units.
Betting only B, ended -18 units.  Max bet 5 units. Lowest BR was -18 units.
Mixed ended -4 units. Max bet 7 units.  Lowest BR was -11 units.


BPBPPPBBPPPPBPBBBPPPPPBPBBPPBBPPBBBPBBBPPBPBPBPBPBBBPBPBB

Betting only P, ended -4 units.  Max bet 6 units. Lowest BR was -4 units.
Betting only B, ended +9 units. Max bet 5 units.  Lowest BR was -7 units.
Mixed ended +13 units. Max bet 4 units.  lowest BR was -3 units.

Totals after five shoes:

Ended +18 units betting P only, with a 25 unit loss limit.  If no loss limit, would have lost 30 units.  If flat bet P only would be +11.

Ended -30 units betting B only with a 25 unit loss limit. If no loss limit, would have lost 80 units.  If flat bet B, would be -11 units.

Ended+15 units betting Mixed, with a 25 unit loss limit. If no loss limit, would have been +1 unit.  If flat bet Mixed, would be +19 units.
#6
AsymBacGuy / Re: Baccarat unbeatable plan #1
November 06, 2018, 09:05:43 AM
Yeah, I got the picture.

You want me to tell you how I do it.

I analyzed nearly one-hundred different flat bet variations over more than 1,000 shoes, before I settled on the one I currently use. 

After all that work, why would I tell anyone how I play?

I posted my numbers to show flat betting can win units, and discourage people from wasting their bankrolls progression betting.   My previous posts show FTP, and Banker Only can be effective flat bet strategies.

I did add something to the discussion, but you were not listening.

"Stay away from progressions and cancellation systems."

Millions of players have been using them for the past 100 years.  If even one of them worked, the game would no longer exist.

Wannabes are the ones who waste their time and bust their bankrolls over and over on that nonsense.

There is never a mathematical reason to use a progression in Baccarat.

Even if a side is mathematically favored to win the next hand, it is only favored by a small fraction of a percentage. That is no justification for increasing a bet by 100% or more.
#7
AsymBacGuy / Re: Baccarat unbeatable plan #1
November 02, 2018, 11:22:14 AM
I am up net 60 units this year, flat betting.  I had similar results last year as well.

Was up net 74 units until yesterday, when two virtual machines beat me.  Lesson learned.

I buy in for ten units, and use a twenty unit bankroll.

Progressions, and systems such and Lebouchere and Oscars Grind, D alembert, and others, will destroy you. They add nothing to overall wins, and increase risk of ruin and variance exponentially.

That is why casinos love system players.

Unlike Blackjack, there is never any mathematical reason to justify using a progression in Baccarat.
#8
General Discussion / Re: The "No System" System
June 25, 2018, 08:28:23 PM
Quote from: soxfan on May 30, 2018, 11:39:42 PM
Bwaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the garnabby is back. So, do tell, what has befallen the gr888888888888888888888888one, hey hey?

Someone elsewhere reported there is a 'strong rumour' Gr8Player committed suicide over his baccarat losses.
#9
Baccarat Forum / Re: Dr Tom's baccarat system
June 19, 2017, 12:21:31 PM
Quote from: Poss on June 19, 2017, 09:18:42 AM
I have become increasingly skeptical, cautious and conflicted having spent 2 long weeks developing Dr. Tom's Baccarat System. Stuck in my financial crisis, I was naive to pin all my hopes into Dr.Tom's System and although it maybe devastating news if his system is just another scam, then I could at least move on before my bankroll is totally destroyed by the System that I have regarded as my only hope.

Did you read this thread before you wasted your money?  The complete 'Dr. Tom's System' is posted free in the first pages of this thread.  There is no reason for anyone to purchase it.
#10
Flat betting Banker only, every hand, from start to finish is the standard against which to test any system.  If it can't beat Banker only, don't bother.

Tested another fifty real card, hand shuffled and hand dealt shoes using TUBS.

All results are before commissions.

Results after 100 shoes = + 8 units.  Won 66 shoes, lost 34 shoes.

Betting Banker only each hand start to finish = 168 units.

2nd flat bet strategy = 260 units

3rd FB strategy = 226 units (partial shoes)


First 25 shoes in Zumma tester: 

TUBS = +1 unit

Betting Banker only start to finish = +75 units
#11
Quote from: ADulay on June 12, 2017, 03:07:26 AM
Well, if we can get "permission" from the author of TUBS, I'd like to post up the play from Shoe #2 which I show never goes positive after hand 14.  Obviously we're playing it differently.

AD

Re-checked.  You are correct.  Shoe #2 lost 5 units with TUBS.

Thanks.
#12
Thanks for testing those shoes fellows.  I neglected to say I used a different strategy for those shoes where I won the four units.

The shoes yielded 3+3+3 = 9 units when I tested them using TUBS. 

#13
Quote from: ADulay on June 10, 2017, 08:55:47 PM


   For the near future I will now run VDW/2 and TUBPBWS in tandem when anybody posts a live shoe here on the forum and report back the results.  At least you'll have some kind of benchmark.


  AD

Are VDW/2 and TUBPBWS flat-bet systems?

Appreciate it if you could run any of these live hand shuffled and dealt shoes.  I was only +4 gross for all three combined.

Thanks.

PBPBPPTPTPBPBBPBBPPPBPPPBBPBBBBPPTBPBPPBBBPBPPPPPBBTPPPTPBBPTPP


BTBTPBTBBTPPPPBPBPPPPBPBBPPTPBPBTPPPBPPPTBPPBPBBBBTPPPBPPBB


BBBBPBPBPTPBBBPTTPTPPBTPPPBPBBBPPBBPBBPBPPTBPPBBBPBPTBPPPP
#14
Quote from: 21 Aces on June 10, 2017, 10:30:30 AM
Thanks for sharing.  A few questions:
- This is flat betting Bank start to finish?
- Flat betting?
- Any notes on max draw down during the course of play.  That is, you run across a series of shoes in a low number of shoes that are Player cut (dominated by Player).

Thanks!

Yes.  Consecutively played shoes.  Not 'hand picked'.  All flat betting Banker only on every hand start to finish.

Biggest drawdown was 22 units after losing three consecutive shoes.  Betting Banker only won 31 shoes out of fifty.

This is the running unit count:  -3,2,3,13,14,13,14,12,10,26,42,37,39,26,29,30,28,22,22,36,35,45,50,53,54,55,65,74,83,99,98,96,98,95,99,116,123,123,131,126,112,109,121,120,
129,119,136,126,119,118

Total units won by shoe 100 = 168 units, minus approximately 150 units in commissions. 

#15
Quote from: stephen tabone on June 08, 2017, 09:19:58 PM
anytime, bring it on! those who don't believe is systems I say this, you're living in one, the solar system !! I'll prove my system works which is why I'm a best seller in baccarat category

I purchased the Kindle version of your book.  After testing your system on fifty of the real card shoes I have on record, your system ended up losing twelve units, not counting commissions, and lost twenty of those fifty shoes.

For comparison, betting Banker exclusively to the end of each shoe, would have yielded 118 units on those same fifty shoes.