How many crossings to map?
Ofcourse there are endless list of possibilities. But we need to keep our tracking minimal and as simple as possible. Also, we need to ensure that our tracking is leading us to the maximum capitalization. After years of playing this framework, i can safely conclude that you track only numbers that has not come, numbers that have come once and numbers that have come more than once. That is 0, 1 and >1. Anything more than that not only increases the complexity of tracking, but also results in lesser number of winning crossings within limited numbers of spins. In other words, it takes more number of spins for crossing to win.

Lets see with an example of how to track the above spins from wiesbaden.
Spin            Finale                0             1                >1
5                  5                       9             1                         - There are 9 finales yet to appear and one has appeared once.
28                8                       8             2                         - 8 no appearances and 2 appeared once
24                4                       7              3
7                  7                       6              4
13                3                       5              5
25                5                       5              4                1      -  Finale 5 has appeared twice. So the tracking becomes 5 no appearanes, 4 appeared once and 1 appeared more than once.

Simple right? Now lets get to the next step.

What do we track?
Now lets get into the framework. First of all lets try to keep it simple. Instead of tracking 36 numbers, why not we track only 10 numbers. Is it not easy to keep track? How do we do it. Yeah! You got it. Our finales are the 10 numbers that we are tracking, 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9. Each finale may have 3 or 4 numbers associated with it, but we will keep our tracking limited to the final digits of these numbers and hence we will track only 10 digits at any point in time.

So lets take the first few spins from wiesbaden table 3 from yesterday. 5, 28, 24, 7, 13, 25, 33, 13, 7, 27, 21, 25, 29, 9.   We will track it like 5, 8, 4, 7. 3, 5, 3, 3, 7, 7, 1, 5, 9, 9. Got it? We go now to the next step.

I did mention briefly about Winkel and GUT when I was talking about keeping things simple. God gave us earth and skies. God gave us food and energy. Our ancestors gave us clothign and shelter. Winkel gave us a powerful concept called "Crossings". Accordingly to his Great universal theory, crossings have to happen in roulette. When it happens is "Scholastical" (I can't pronounce it correctly .

Basic building block 1 - Crossings : Crossings are a powerful way to express that events on long term have to take opposing sides. It is a proof of every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction in roulette and things have to be balanced on long term. It is the cyclical equivalent of Last and further. It works on the chinese philisophy that things have to work in harmony and have to get balanced. But over what period of time, is any one's guess. I won't explain crossings further, as you can refer to any of old winkel's threads.

I am always in two minds when it comes to GUT. One side of me says, what a genius, excellent! Other side says what is scientific about it, another fallacy. But there are things that I have formed a opinion. It is so difficult to track in live play. Its so many numbers, its so many crossings, very complex when you are sitting in a casino. Sometimes i think if only the number of possible crossings are less, if only the numbers that i have to track to be less then there is a greater possibility of the crossings happening frequently and greater possibility of getting a victorious crossing as the number of possibilities are less.

Also, hey! where is the progression? Ofcourse manrique, winkel and claudio taught us how powerful flat betting can be. But progression is a synonym for success right

  until the master finishes his course on killing dispersion this humble student has to look a ways of getting off

So now that we are done with some basics on Finales, lets get to business. There are numerous ways I play with Finales, because it gives me the adrenaline rush of travelling in the road not taken or less travelled.  I thought I will use this to explain multiple concepts on finales and multiple methods that i adopt to play finales. I will also try to rate them on a number of parameters and will not only explain the methods that win consistently, but also those tank as the concepts are important and who knows someone may be able to devise a better method using those concepts.

Let me start with something that has been winning for me. I will keep this post clean and short by just keeping links to all the finale frameworks. I also invite anyone who has successfully used finales to post the link of their framework here.

This one is based on crossings.
http://betselection.cc/straight-up/the-finale-crossing

Thansk ignatus. Even if you can explain only those spins in your LW string that will also help.

Quote from: NathanDetroit on May 16, 2013, 12:39:36 PM
A 25 % loss limit based upon the session bankroll. A 10 % win goal Guarantee. Once the  guaranteed goal has  been achieved continue  playing with the EXCESS  until the  FIRST loss occurs.

May be for playing even chances. May be for playing columns and dozens. Do you think this will work on systems that thrive on huge drawdowns, like playing straight-ups. A great example is Ace of spades from ignatus. Is 1.5X of recovery point the only way to identify when to get off. Is fixed number of spins very effective way to decide when to stop? What other elements have you folks used to indicate when to get off?

Quote from: Sputnik on May 16, 2013, 03:53:26 PM
@ ND i know exactly what you mean.
I for sure respect JP for his clever ways that i read about.

@ND and Sputnik - can you recommend the ebooks and books to read about JPs ways clearly. Whatever i have learnt about him is from ND

Quote from: ignatus on May 16, 2013, 11:42:15 AM
OK, I did my first Live-session playing this; LLLLLLLLWLLLLLLLLLLLLLLWLLW -Wingoal reached +200u.

At this point i had 4 unit with 9u bet on each... After a win like this it's a good idea to reset progression.

Confused. Are you able to give a spin by spin view?

Very similar to the fortress!


http://betselection.cc/straight-up/the-fortress-system/

But a unique take on progression to capitalize.   

In other words how do you decide for your method what is the stop loss point and what is the win point.   

This is to Flat and Bayes!

Session 3

Quote from: ozon on May 13, 2013, 12:18:21 AM
I   don't  know   where  You   see    profit   in   this   strategy  .
I   test   this for   random   Dublinbet   sessions   from   last  3   days,   each  150  spins.
1  :  -50 , whole   session   minus
2  :   highest   was   +8  , I   wait   for  + 10  as  target   profit , never reach  and   ended   - 210
3  :   this    one    reach    +  10   ,  I play   whole   session ,   bigest   profit    + 20

Ozon,
We did exchange PMs. Apologies, was very busy lately so couldnt come back to you earlier. I don't advice the way you are playing without a proper MM. Anyone in this forum can advice strongly on how to manage your money in a better manner and how to do the same within/around sessions.

Also, i see you really do very long sessions. Attached is a way that should suit your style of play. Please test it extensively before using it.

Others,
Attached is my take on what Flat has commented in this thread using the statistics provided by Bayes (Both of them are real genius and filled with wisdom and experience.. Salute!  ). Basically i tweaked Flats bet selection method to continuously look at the first of the previous 6 spins and play it for 7,8 and 9th spins as a bet selection. Attached is the outcome from Ozon's play into hell.

Session 1 : Flat betting , final state  -3 units, Sesion max +20 units.
Cyclic betting,  final state -28 units, session max +57 units.

Session 2 : Flat betting +12 units, session max +31 units
Cyclic betting +35 units, session max +71 units.

Session 3 : Flat betting +16 units, session max +33 units
Cyclic betting +35 units, session max +85 units.

So the quest continues !!! The more we look the more we learn and the more we adapt the more we win.

A note to flat and atlantis, i have successfully used your selections in my last few visits to soho square! Thanks for the continuous learning experience

 Now that I have posted the concepts, let me try walking through few spins in the zumma challenge and the details of rest can be seen in the excel attached.

·         We start betting straightaway or we chose to wait for the first set of 5 cycles of 36 spins to complete to understand whether it was a winning or a losing cycle. I have chosen to wait. The outcome of the first 5 sets of 36 spins are WWWWW. Outright win both on the cycle and the last outcome of the 36 spin span. So we chose to bet the next span of 36 spins. 1 unit on number 3 until we get a hit or completion of 36 spins. We get a hit in spin number 11. So we stop betting here and start observing 5 sets of 36 spins. At this stage our bank roll is +25 (36 – 11). Our cycle count for progression is 1·         The outcome of the next 5 sets of 36 spin spans are WWLLW. Win on cycle and win on the last outcome of the 36 spin span. So we choose to bet the next span of 36 spins. 1 unit on number 3 until we get a hit or 36 spins. We get a hit on spin 31. So we stop betting here and start observing 5 sets of 36 spins. At this stage our bank roll is +30 (+25 from earlier bets and +5 from this betting opportunity).  Our cycle count for progression is 2.
·         The outcome of the next 5 sets of 36 spin spans are WWWWW. Win on cycle and win on the last outcome of the 36 spin span. So we choose to bet the next span of 36 spins. 1 unit on number 3 until we get a hit or 36 spins. We get a hit on spin 7. So we stop betting here and start observing 5 sets of 36 spins. At this stage our bank roll is +59 (+30 from earlier bets and +29 from this betting opportunity).  Our cycle count for progression is 3.
·         The outcome of the next 5 sets is WWWWL. The cycle is a win, but the last outcome is a loss. So we assume that this is a start of a losing wave and sit out the next 5 sets of 36 spins. There is no trigger for us to bet the next set of 36 spins. BR remains at +59 and cycle count for progression remains at 3 as we choose not to bet this cycle and hence will not count towards progression.·         The outcome of the next set is LWWLW. This cyle is a win and the last outcome is also a win. So we bet on the next set of 36 spins. We lose this 36 spins, as the number 3 did not come in 36 spins. We continue to observe this 5 sets of 36 spins. The BR at the end of this cycle is +23 (36 lost in this cycle subtracted from +59 from previous bets). The cycle count for progression is 4. ·         We proceed this way for the next set and figure out that our next trigger for betting is not appearing for a few sets. The outcomes of few following sets are LWLLL, WWLWL, LLWLL, LLLWW, LLLWW. And then we get a WWWLW. So here comes our trigger. A cycle win and a last outcome win. So we go with 1 unit bet on number 3 for the next set of 36 spins. We get a hit on spin number 8 and stop betting to observe the next cycle. Our BR at the end of this is +51 (28 from this set and 23 from previous history). Our cycle progression count is now 5. We are at the end of our progression cycle. We look at our outcome of this 5 bets and we are in positive and hence a win. So we subtract one from the units that we were betting lost. Because we were betting on base unit, we remain at base unit. ·         The process goes on after resetting the cyclic progression count to 0. Now the result of our next 5 betting opportunities were +4, +9, -36, -36, -36, this adds up to -95. So we lost this progression cycle and because we lost, we increase our unit size by 1. At the end of this second cycle, which was a set of 10 betting opportunities, we are at -44 units.·         The result of next 5 betting opportunities is -114 units betting 2 units on every valid betting opportunity. Again a loss, so we increment our unit by 1. Now the units that we will bet becomes 3 and the overall BR is -158. ·         The result of next 5 betting opportunities is +270 units betting 3 units. A win, so we decrement our unit size by 1. It becomes 2 units. Now we find out our overall BR. We are +156 units. As we are in overall profit, we reset our bet size to one unit.·        We go on and on. The details further can be easily seen from the excel I posted.  For this set of 15000 spins, using this our maximum progression is 3 units. Using this cyclical betting progression our final outcome at the end of 15,000 spins is +287 units.
·         Now apply the same method to any number from 0 to 36 in your 15,000 spins, the probability of getting a positive unit size is really high. If Sumit, you can share may be a couple of numbers which are next worst performing and LW for those numbers, we can run this on those set of numbers to see how this method stakes.

Quote from: Albalaha on May 12, 2013, 07:47:28 AM
I still can't understand whether the figures that you arrived at are correct or not by your explanations. Can't you work it out spin by spin? If 36 spins are a cycle for you and u increase by every cycle loss and decrease by every cycle win, how could u bet 3 unit max?
            Can GreatGr or anybody else explain this?

Ok! Sumit I will try explaining this so that it is very clear.





There are three things that form the framework of this method.



1.       Keep things simple – We will treat 36 spins as one betting opportunity and the outcome of this 36 spins as a "W" or "L". In other words, if our chosen number for betting is "x", in a span of 36 spins, if "x" comes up once, we stop betting that 36 spin span and mark that span of 36 spins as "W". We will miss out if the number "x" comes again in the same span of 36 spins, but that's alright as we are looking at a bigger picture of winning consistently and remaining in profit.

2.      Ride on waves whether winning or losing – Easier said than done. Easy in theory and difficult in practice. However, I have seen that we can do it with far more success with two important things that I have learnt. "Virtual betting" and "Cyclic betting". Virtual betting is a well-known concept and I don't have to explain it, I guess because any serious player will be aware of it. "Cyclic betting" is something that I will explain. It is not cyclic progression. It is very different from cyclic progression. "Cyclic betting" is all about analysing a cycle to understand win/loss waves and start riding on those waves. It is built around the fallacy (or should I say philosophy) that wins/losses come in cycles whether in life or in roulette. Chosing individual spins to analyse this waves will not give the right picture as it is a phenomenon that is going to last over a few betting opportunities and not on individual betting opportunities. What it does is, it takes a set of betting opportunities and see whether we were winning or losing on those betting opportunities and what was the last occurrence. If both comes out as "W", then it is a signal of good things J

For this framework it translates as follows. We consider cycles of 5 betting outcomes. Lets say the outcome of 5 sets of 36 spins looks as  - WWLLW. So this is a winning cycle, as there were 3 Ws compared to 2 Ls. Also, to understand whether the wave is still continuing or not, we take the last betting outcome. IT is a "W". So we "assume" that the winning wave is continuing and put our money on the next set of 36 spins expecting a favourable outcome. I stress on "assume" because it is not conclusive and not an definite confirmation of things to come, but an indication of things to come. A few more examples.

WWLWW – We bet on the next 36 spins
WLLWW – we bet on the next 36 spins
LWWWL – we don't, as the cycle is won, but the last outcome is L
LWLWL – We don't, as the cycle is lost
WLLLW – We don't, as the last outcome was won, but the cycle is lostAnd so on. So essentially this is our trigger.

3.       Cyclical progression – This is being discussed in other topics in forum. So won't go into the details, but it is essentially treating our betting opporutnities in cycles and progressing it, using a progression that suits.So every time we chose to bet using point number 2 will be considered as 1 of a cycle of 5 bets. And depending on whether these 5 bets result in losing amount we increase stakes by 1 and if it results in winning amount we decrease the stakes by 1 and reset to base unit when there is an overall gain.