Quote from: Atlantis on May 03, 2013, 03:05:13 PM
Hi,
Nice topic, GreatGrampa - or are you RouletteExplorer?? eh?  I say that as you have similar writing style to him and he was an 'oldtimer' too... Anyhow, whatever, I like the idea very much and it's a bit like his "everything reversed system".
Will be trying this soon!
Respect - and please keep up the good work along these lines. 
A.

Glad you liked it. I respect roulette explorer but am not him

Quote from: ll l lll ll l lll on May 03, 2013, 03:17:35 PM
GG,

In your experience with this method of play, is playing with flat betting a consistent winner, loser, or break even? (With a proper stop loss)  Is it neccessary to do the cyclic progression to come out on top long term?

Thanks

Completely agree with Flat ino.

Playing flat betting you can be a winner on long term, but your winnings will be something like a 0.01% and you have to have a lot and lot more playing time and larger number of spins to get to that 0.01% coupled with very tight MM. Its not worth it and is no fun. As I mentioned, i figured out the hard way that cyclic progression is the best bet for this kind of a framework. Any other progression that i know will increase your drawdown and hence the risk of losing larger amounts. Hope you get it. Also, as the draw down from cyclic bet is not high as I have shown in the example, there should not be any hindrances playing it and preferring it over flat bet.

Chris,
The LW register is different from what you are trying to play. LW register is what is happening in the table. Irrespective of what you bet, whether you are winning or losing, LW register just follows the table based on the last two numbers came. Of the last two numbers if 2 or 3 out of 3 even chances match its marked as a "W" in the LW register, else it is marked as a "L".

Now comes what you bet. If the LW register says "L", you just bet the opposite of the number that came last, irrespective of where you placed your bets last. It should not be the opposite of where you last placed your bets. This is why this is different from others because you are followign the table for every single bet and not going with a fixed "Same" and "Opposite". Similarly, if the LW register says "W", you just bet the same chances as the number that came last, irrespective of where you placed your bets last.

Hope you got this. Happy to clarify. 

Now I am not a big fan of excels and bots as it interrupts my creativity at the table, but i know some people enjoy using them. So I have created a little excel which is designed to follow exactly what i described in the framework with a 5 spin cyclic progression. All you need to do is enter your base unit and start entering the spins and the excel will do the rest for you. My advice as always, don't be a system player, the excel will make you a system player. Use it wisely! Happy reading and happy playing folks!

So that comes to the end of my explanation of the framework. This shows how the concepts discovered in this forum can become a powerful tool for anyone, as I have simply combined what i have learnt from here to a few basic concepts. I played this continuously for a month sometime last year and I can vouch that a 200 unit bank grew to 20,000 units applying Victor's 50:25:25 money management and compounding base units.

Points to ponder
As you can easily see all our concepts come good here.
1. Take all chances
2. Keep things simple
3. Follow what's happening in the table
4. Do a progression that suits the framework. In this case, it's a cyclic progression. How you implement cyclic progression is upto you.

Now as powerful as this method is, as exhibited in table 4, it tanks but can recover as well. So don't forget the strong money management bit, as without it you are digging yourself a grave.

Any thoughts, any feedback, any adaptation of this framework will be a learning exercise for all of us in this forum. So please contribute and grow the wealth of this forum. Looking for a fruitful stay here!

Yours!
GreatGrampa

Now, just for people who are interested in knowing how the other tables at wiesbaden performed, the same framework worked the following across tables 3, 4 and 7 from yesterday.

Table 3 - Flat bet at the end of 20 bets, outcome of 0. Cyclic progression as per the example above +9.

Table 4 - Flat bet at the end of 20 bets, outcome of -12. Cyclic progression as per the example above - 20. Had I continued to recover my losses, i would have completely recovered my losses and gained 2 units at the end of spin 68 and I would have quit. But if i just play the system continuously and played further targetting a higher gain(which i would not do as this was a bad run for me and i would have walked away happily that i have got 2 units), you would have walked away with a whopping +37 units in cycle containing spins 133-137. Max draw down was -57 units. So still under a 100 unit bank roll even after 138 spins with a gain of +37 units. Sounds interesting isn't it?

Table 7 - This table was a cake walk. There was no cyclic progression for the first 20 spins at all as there was no cyclic loss. So at the end of 22nd spin, we walk away with a profit of +14 units. After two cycles, i would have sensed this and would have followed a positive progression and drawn greater results. But living within the rules of this framework decided at the start and playing the play that we planned (this is key for successful player), we restrict ourselves to a modest profit.

So you see the power of triple shooter framework. All four tables in wiesbaden from yesterday, 1 easy table, 1 difficult table and 2 normal tables. If I was playing, I would have adopted a cyclic approach and walked the day off with a 38 unit profit(+13 from table2 +9 from table3 +2 from table 4 and +14 from table 7). But as you can see even if someone might have continued he could have targetted for a better outcome.

Lets do the same thing with cyclic progression now. For this example I treat cycles of 5 with +1 for next cycle evenly across all chances on a cycle loss and -1 on a cycle win or stay at base unit if you are in base unit. When am in a real life scenario, I do variations to create some excitement for me personally like cycles of 8, cycles of 10 etc and also depending on the situation I vary the cyclic progression like +1 on a win cycle and stay there on a loss cycle or +1 on a loss cycle and stay level after a win cycle etc. So the concept that suits this method is cyclic bet. How you implement it, is entirely upto you. I will not repeat the REH, BOL etc notation as we are going to use the same numbers in last example.

Spin     LW        Bet          Outcome          Cycle outcome         
14                                                 
30          w                                       
27          w        3          4      +1         
30          w        3          4      +2         
35          l          3          2        +1         
14          l          3          6        +4         
22          l          3          4        +5          - Cycle win. Remain at base bet. Overall +5
16          l          3          4        +1         
34          w        3          2        0         
17          l          3                    -3         
14          l          3          4         -2         
16          w        3                    -5          - Cycle loss. Increment unit by 1. Overall 0
12          w        6          12       +6         
7          w          6          8        +8         
33          l          6          4         +6         
14          l          6          12      +12         
21          l          6          8        +14          - Cycle win. Decrement by 1. Overall +14
3          w          3          2        -1         
10          l          3          2        -2         
28          w        3          2        -3         
34          w        3          4        -2         
29          l          3          4        -1          - Cycle loss. Overall +13

So by the end of 20 spins, we are at a overall of +13, with a max draw down of -6 in one instance. So lets say your base unit is 5$, you get a 65$ return at the end of 20 spins.

Example
Let's look at an example. Let me take the Wiesbaden numbers from table 2 from yesterday for posting it here. Let's say we do flat betting in this example. I will try to do this example with a cyclic betting as well.  The outcomes are 14, 30, 27, 30, 35, 14, 22, 16, 34, 17, 14, 16, 12, 7, 33, 14, 21, 3, 10, 28, 34, 29. We will stop here for this example purposes with 20 bets.
14 - REL
30 - REH - W                                   - This is marked as a W as per our LW register. So we repeat the chances for our starting bet. So our next bet will be REH
27 - ROH - W   - +1                         - We bet 3 and got back 4. This is marked as W as per LW register. So we repeat the chances. Next bet will be ROH
30 - REH - W   - +1                         - Next bet is REH. Overall we are +2 now.
35 - BOH - L    - -1                          - We bet 3 and got back 2. This is marked as L as per register. So we bet against the chances. Next bet will be REL. Over all we are +1 now.
14 - REL - L     - +3                         - We won all the 3 bets and got back 6. However as per LW register, this will be marked as "L" eventhough we won the bet. that's because none of the last even chance repeated. THIS IS KEY. Next bet will be against the chances as the register says L. It will be on BOH. Overall we are +4 now.
22 - BEH - L - +1                           - We bet 3 and got back 4. However, it is marked as L as per our LW register as only 1 of the last even chance repeated. Next bet we bet against this as the register says L, so we bet on ROL. Overall we are +5 now.
16 - REL - L - +1                           - Overall +6. Next bet on BOH
34 - REH - W - -1                          - Overall +5. Next bet on REH, as even though we lost the bet, the LW register says W.
17 - BOL - L - -3                            - Overall +2. Next bet on REH again.
14 - REL - L - +1                           - Overall +3. Next one on BOH
16 - REL - W - -3                           - Overall 0. Next one on REL
12 - REL - W - +3                          - Overall +3. Next one on REL
7 - ROL - W - +1                            - Overall +4. Next one on ROL
33 - BOH - L - -1                           - Overall +3. NExt one on REL
14 - REL - L - +3                            - Overall +6. Next one on BOH
21 - ROH - L - +1                           - Overall +7. Next one on BEL
3 - ROL - W - -1                             - Overall +6. Next one on ROL
10 - BEL - L - -1                             - Overall +5. Next one on ROH
28 - BEH - W - -1                           - Overall +4. Next one on BEH
34 - REH - W - +1                          - Overall +5. Next one on REH
29 - BOH - L - -1                            - Overall +4. Next one if we decide to bet is on REL.
Now this example is based on Flat betting.  Overall, 20 bets on 22 spins. Outcome +4. Max drawdown is -1 on two instances.                                   

The Triple shooter Framework
I think we are done on the concepts. Now let me explain how i play around these concepts and we can then hear opinions from fellow forumers.
Framework rule 1 : The reason you call it triple shooter is because you always bet on all three even chances. Remember concept 1, take all chances life gives you. No matter what happens, you bet on all three, with equal distribution of units.
Framework rule 2 : Make it look simple with LW register. How does it work? Simple! You are betting 3 chances, if 2 or more chances win, you are in profit and hence it's a Win or "W". If 1 or no chances win, you lose the bet and hence its marked a loss or "L".
e.g. Lets say you bet on "Red", "Odd", "High". If the outcome is 25 its an outright win. If the outcome is 9 it's a partial win. Both cases we mark it as "W".  If the outcome is 12 it's a partial loss and if the outcome is 0 or 8 it's a complete loss. Both cases we mark it as "L"
Framework rule 3 : Always bet on the last trend. Irrespective of what you played in the last spin, if the last spin outcome was "W", bet on the even chances of the number that came last. Similarly, irrespective of what you played in the last spin, if the last spin outcome was "L", bet on the even changes against the number that came last.
e.g 1. Lets say you bet on "Red", "Odd", "High". The outcome is 9. it's a partial win, so you mark it "W". Now as its "W" we play the chances on the number that came last. So our next bet will be "Red", "Odd" and "Low".
e.g. 2 Lets say we bet on "Red", "Odd", "High". The outcome is 12. it's a partial loss, so we mark it "L". Now as its "L" we play the against chances on the number that came last. So our next bet will be "Black", "Odd" and "High".
What if 0 or 00 comes. No defined rule. Play as you like. I prefer waiting for a couple of spins to see a Zero repeater and start based on the last spin number. There were days when i counted them as a "L" and proceeded based on it. Its upto the person implementing the framework.

Basic Building Block 4 : "Human beings crave for excitement"
Who said you can't win with Flat betting. Lord Manrique taught us how to do it using his parachuting technique. Herr Winkel told us how to do it in his GUT. Ofcourse it can be done. But human beings crave for excitement. The whole reason why GOD gave us adrenalin.
The key is to decide what's best for you and what suits you. If its flat betting let it be. If its progression let it be. But the trick is not only in deciding what suits you, but what suits the framework you are playing. There are a number of progression options that you have right from the good ole Marty, alem and fibbi to the ones that people have invented in this forum and outside like attila, GLC and the more recent one from bing bell. From my experience I believe the best one for this framework is either going flat or doing a cyclic incremental bet every 5-10 bets on a loss depending on what comforts you.

Basic building block 3 : "Win while you win, lose while you lose"
Whether its winning or losing, getting into a streak is just around the corner. When the lady luck smiles, it could go either way. Turning into our advantage is very difficult to do. Only a handful of gamblers in the world know how to limit your losses and max your profits which is easily said than done. However, as I always said, this forum has been a huge inspiration for me. If there is one man who taught me how to get around these winning and losing streaks, it is FLAT INO.
Puzzled? Look at his LvF method. You either catch the trend whether you are losing or winning on your bet selection and accordingly alternate between your bets. What a powerful tool right. Way better than alternating your bets just for the sake of alternating and getting into an alternating streak and either winning or getting into a hole. This is a concept that we will use for our Triple shooter framework.

Basic Building block 2 : "Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated" - Confucius

You know why Mr. Jobs and iphone was a huge success and created a 100bn$+ empire. Its all about keeping things simple. A 1 year old can operate it with ease and for old blokes like me technology was no more a hindrance. that's the power of simplicity.

But we all know its too difficult to keep things simple. Churchill once wrote a 5 page letter to his relative and added a post script that read "Honey, I didn't have the time to write a short letter and hence wrote a long one. My apologies". Wow! that says something about simplicity. Coming to our world here, Lanky used to be the master of simplicity. The way he puts things in a simple manner is something i miss now.

Ok! So what you might ask! There is a simple concept that Victor and Lanky taught me few years back. Keeping an LW registry. I don't know whether it was their original idea, but LW registry is such a powerful but simple tool for one who plays roulette. Things can't get simpler than that.

Over the years, I worked on my LW registry and have developed an art of applyng to whatever situation in the roulette, be as straightforward as playing an even chance or as complicated as playing multiple straight inside bets, seeing them as LW registers and making things simple has helped me a lot. I will share how this building block of a simple LW registry tool helps me taking a  complex triple  bet selection simple when we get to the details of the framework.

To avoid confusion i have shifted the thread here from my first post, so that we can have some focussed discussion on this topic.
I was thinking where to start and i landed on this thread by Ralph on playing 3 even chances and thought would add my 2 cents on it. I have been using a framework called Triple shooter and will share it with this group to enrich the learning experience. The more you contribute, the more we learn.

By the way, I like calling it a framework rather than a system, as understanding the concepts and rules of this framework is essential for any one to use it as it is or use it in a way it works for them. I can't agree more with Lord Manrique or JP when they say a system player is always a loser.

Basic building block 1 - "You got to take all the chances life gives you to be a successful human being".
To me, this goes well with roulette as well. If you have decided to play outside bets and even chances (Grr! I hate the person who gave it the name even chances with a green 0 and 00 making us donate money to the casino), then you got to take all the chances available to you. You will be limiting yourselves to lesser opportunities of creation of wealth, if you are taking your chances. Well! Some one might say that you are exposing yourselves to the vulnerabilities of all the ECs (Grr! can we call it Even Returns, as even chances is not really sounding right , but it really depends on how you see it and whether you are a half glass full or half glass empty person and I must admit that i am a half glass full person.

Why is it so? That brings me to a important story i read some where. Once a forex trader and  a gambler met. Forex trader said i made 0.17% profit and am really happy and gambler said i made only 10 units betting even chances on a 100 unit bankroll and am really sad. Some might argue that the gambler should be happy that he made 10% profit compared to the forex persons 0.17%. They are not on a level playing field to treat everything as percentage game isn't it. it's a win all or lose all game on even chances, where as all the other percentage investments are not so. Legends have worked hard to convert all Money management into percentage play with a great level of success. What is left is bet selection. How do we make it percentage play to get us into even position and get into a level playing field. The answer is a big NOT POSSIBLE. Taking that with a pinch of salt, if we are able to convert playing on even chances to a percentage play partially if not completely, that's a huge advantage. that's why we play all 3 ECs together.

Law of reality suggests that all 3 ECs cannot trend together. Put in other words you will not lose all 3 bets on a streak like 10 reds when betting only colours or 10 odds in a row when betting only EO. Sure you may lose some if 2 out of 3 streak, but you will still be winning on one. that's where we are able to achieve and gain some advantage over playing just one EC, by converting this into a partial percentage play.

I am neither a mathematician nor a statistician, but the one with experience and instincts and this sounds right for me as these three are three individual outcomes independent of each other.

Over the years I have been a huge follower of this forum but as a guest.  Be it good ole "Victor" or the divisor "lanky", experienced "flat ino" or the testing stuff systems (of course "TCS"), jp fan nd or system library glc, mathematical winkel or one-time wonder ironsteel, "legendary" hitman john or the humble scoobydoo (the list goes on and will need a separate project q post) you have all given me something to think about. Every post is a learning experience. 


Sure I lost close to 50,000$ in my first year, but hey that was 6 years back.  Now I can confidently say that I have built my career around it. The money lost was the capital investment for my business . The key to it has been the teachings from this forum around "treat it as a business".  If you are running a company sure you may have days when you operate on loss, and days when you are on a roll, but your quarter results and annual reports are what matters. Run it tight and every penny counts like every second matters in a rocket launch.   


The second thing is "holy grail has its own time warp" or there is no hg.  Even if there is one treat it as there is none.  There is for a reason its called Holy grail. Even after the da vinci code is broken no one could finally get their hands on HG If one of the greatest mathematician ever born in Einstein, couldnt locate it no one could. There were days when I casino tables used to have different dealers, diff balls, diff numbers, spin after spin and I used to be a constant for hours.  13 hours was my long haul using a single system. ( it was the LvF9). 


Third learning was "in god we trust, and we need money management for rest". You learn not to trust any bet selection.  This is the key.  The moment you trust it's an absolute winner, you are digging your own grave. Manage your money better, set % limits on your losses (ofcourse the learning is that don't set it on your winnings), and treat every money goes into your pocket as your money and never place it back for the casino to swallow it.

With all these learnings, I have been making my living for past 3 years on roulette. Of course it was boring to use very few concepts on bet selection, even though the impact on your bank on betselection was less significant compared to mm. So I developed some of my own over the years and have decided to share with fellow forumers to multiply some fun.  Some are good some or bad in consistency but everything is good on its day and equally bad when the stars say so.  Over the following days I will share them and will be open to your feedback as every post I a learning. 


Once again, you forumers rock and should find a legendary place in roulette history along side Norman Leigh, John Patrick, Brett Morton, manrique, Attila (don't start a discussion questioning their legendary status .


A BIG THANK YOU!