Take care Sam. in fact you gave away 2 for those who live the game.

Playing fixed based on your example. 


5,3,5,1 - 0
5,6,3,3 - +12
6,6,4,3 - +18
5,6,3,1 - +6
2,4,5,6 - -6
2,2,4,4 - +24.  - some nice hits like these will take you longer and protect from complete matrix losses. 


Playing resetting matrix after a win.


5,3,5 - +7. Win. Reset matrix. 
5,6,3,3 - + 19
6,6 - + 34
5,6,3,1 - +22
2,4,5,6 - + 10
2,2 - +25




If you would like to add a diagonal, then you need to adjust your progression based on 1 diagonal or 2 diagonals you wish to play.  The key is defining the progression so that either any hit is going to send u into profit or break even or if you can't get a progression that will achieve this find one where any hit is going to get you into profit or limit your losses (play it like action numbers of JP)

To me 3x3 is a far better matrix than 2x2 if you don't wish to get into complex concepts like ladders and would like to get a better hit ratio.  To see what I am saying try entering the game from the second spin (double street 3 as first spin as opposed to double street 5)

@bufallo, will give you my progression for 3x3 when you post your method here.

Quote from: Buffalowizard on June 01, 2013, 01:20:07 PM
This is an example of flat betting which is maybe the safest way to utilise this strategy


You'll get more 2,3,4 grid losses in a row here than with the 3x3, but should pick up decent winnings by using the diagonal bet too.

My two cents. If you are using a complete ladder then flat betting is the safest. But Your matrix it is a partial ladder.  So you will get swings depending on what comes in the table. There are tables where numbers change pretty late. Whether 3x3 or 2x2 will give the same expectancy.  But there are tables where they change quickly.  Here 2x2 or 3x3 will give good results.  Normally around 60-65% of the sessions will give you good results with a 3x3 matrix. The more you increase your matrix size the more opps for a hit. There is science behind it and its not random beating randomness.


As you are not using complete ladder we can use "fixed progressions". I will explain it for the 2x2 matrix you have posted here. Excluding diagonals you have 4 betting opportunities.  The fixed progression I would use is 3,2,3,4. Any one hit will get your profit.  You might decide to stop when you get a hit and play the next matrix or play fixed and see how it turns up. 

Quote from: Trebor on June 02, 2013, 08:13:05 AM
One observation I'll make is that without BV some sessions would be seriously long even with a bot.

Sam if I see your videos, I normally see base bets as the table minimum.  If that's the case the number of units to make up that 90 Eur is quite huge for the hours of play that has gone in. 


So probably it's not only with bot or BV. there is definitely an aspect of time spent being proportional to your money bundled, but it need not be achieved thru BV and not essentially thru bot. It depends on what is your preferred way of doing things. I normally spend 3 hrs at a casino in any visit and sometimes even longer. But someone else may not like doing it and see bots as the efficient use of time. Again both of them are not perfect, it is just the way it works for them. 


@Sam.  Great rambling. Often in life we stop to seek perfection and try finding an optimum way of doing things that works. My experience says roulette works the same way.  A grail is not the one which wins you every time you play.  It is the one that keeps you consistently above your bankroll's moving average.  To achieve all you need to do is win 2 out of 3 sessions as some one posted earlier out in this forum and set loss limits that you can recover from.  Rest I think the LORD will shape up there are so many grails in this very forum. You just have to find them and tune them.  The key is not to tune them to perfection but to the way it works for you!

Quote from: blup_00 on June 02, 2013, 06:51:07 PM
Hello mr. greatgrampa, have few questions.
Did you change mr. Winkel's system only for simplicity, or does it get more profit?

I dint change anything. Just adapting it to the finales and that too on places it work.  So if you read carefully you can see that I am using it only for finales that appeared at least once to become more than once.  The adaptation provides following advantages.  Simplicity.  More playing opportunities.  With respect to profit I can't say either way as I have had mixed results.  You should try out yourselves to see how it compares as the original system is complex and different people has their own of doing it. 

Quote from: blup_00 on June 02, 2013, 06:51:07 PM
Can you play both versions on RNG, or only live?

I can only speak of where I have played.  Live - great system to use.  RNG - the only place I have played is BV. It is hard getting playing opps when compared to live but playable.

Quote from: blup_00 on June 02, 2013, 06:51:07 PM
Do you use progression? In your version after 4 losses and in mr. winkles after 2 losses, next win won't get you into positive, unless you double beting units.

The aim is not getting into profit in one win after several losses. The aim is to get closer to a pre-determined target level that works for you based on your test results.  It is best played flat betting to ensure low DD, but you can adopt various progression methods.  None of them gives an edge based on what I have seen.  Winkel has not been very active in the forums as far as I know, but there are lots of people out here who knows GUT in and out.  If you have any queries, shoot and am sure there is enuf knowledge in this forum to answer them.   

But I think the valid question here is if someone is ready to give money back guarantee and has earlier kept their promises what is the harm in getting it and ditching it in the future even if it's a scam.  Dismissing free things just because of a person's past is like following a table for a number for some spins and then not playing that number on a bonus round and realize that the the number has appeared finally. 

Quote from: Buffalowizard on June 01, 2013, 12:55:41 PM
If anyone can advise a progression to manage these three bets per grid that would be great

I used to play double streets based on a 1 step, 2 step, 3 step, 4 step and 5 step ladder. Between these 5 ladders, sum of the BRs will be in the positive always (Signature of a DNHG huh! ). I just read the "In the 9" method from the other forum and saw that it is essentially putting these ladders in a very simple and effective way. How many ladders you would like to include will depend on the number of rows and columns in the matrix. Very well done Buffalo! Great representation and simplification of a very complex idea.

Now I thought I will share the progression that I use for this ladder method, which can effectively be applied to this matrix as well. It is what I call a "Fixed progression" as opposed to Positive, negative or risk based progressions. Here, you play a fixed set of numbers from 1 incrementally. In case of double streets, the breaking point is 11. So for a 3x3 matrix, you will play it from 1 to 8. You just need one hit in the entire matrix to be in the positive. And as the losses in ladder based play are minimum it will help to stay up in the game always. You can chose to play from 1to8 (fixed progression) irrespective of whether you lose or win, or you can stop playing one set of matrix as soon as you get a hit and proceed to the next one. Let me  know in case you need more clarity here.

I thought the black and red was a tribute to the great cross word method From chrisbis. Very similar to the excel look

Here you go ignatus. The challenge is now complete. I will soon post the concepts behind and why it works and what you should look for. But we have had 3 independent sessions, the max unit has never crossed 13 and the outcome is more than 2units per spin. Very productive method, yet conservative using an aggressive technique like Attila. I like it and that's why I play this quite often. I call this method of playing splits a chain reaction, because I like playing dynamically and starting a chain of numbers which explodes your BR in the positive direction.

3rd set of spins with a result of 140+units. Anyone having any queries on how to play this, will be happy to answer.

Quote from: Chrisbis on May 30, 2013, 12:12:00 PM
It doesn't because there IS NOT a previous* Double winning combo........

Right So the quest is still on ! See the 41st and 50th  spins that I posted from the 1st set of spins. It provides a very important clue.

Quote from: Chrisbis on May 30, 2013, 10:17:13 AM
I'm at 70 Euro BR from 40 Euro deposited.
Playing on European Roulette (with zero)

Mostly using BisCending (on 5step progession)
.....and Three EC's combo (similar to Triple Shooter +Green Goblin Insurance)

Great results there. What is BisCending?

Quote from: Atlantis on May 30, 2013, 11:20:12 AM
winning combo for max three attempts .

You got this bit right. But however, does it work for the first set?

OK! Am glad there are people who are still trying. I am so sure that someone will crack it, I have already transferred Vic 50% of the pot I kept for him as the sponsorship to forum 

A little more help from me. I have decided to post details of some of the spins This will be the last set of clues from me after which the post will remain open until someone claims the prize    I will post elements of this in my other posts in the forum in the future and will keep this puzzle open for someone to solve. In the first set, I have purposefully posted 50th spin instead of 51st spin, because between all the numbers exposed, I wanted to cover the whole bit. Happy cracking and am waiting for some one to come back with a solution.

1st set        Spin    Placed bets
1st spin       12      1u D1, 1u C2
11th spin      10      2u D2, 2u C3
21st spin      30      1u D1, 1u C2
31st spin      11      3u D2, 3u C3
41st spin      25      7u D3, 3u C3
50th spin      33      6u C3
61st spin      23      1u D1, 1u C2
Last spin      35      1u D2, 1u C2


2nd set       Spin    Placed bets
1st spin      1       1u D1, 1u C2
11th spin     15      1u D2, 1u C3
21st spin     35      2u D3, 2u C2
31st spin     19      1u D2, 1u C1
last spin     19      1u D2, 1u C1

It is on a 100EUR deposit

Here you go! 130+units from 50 spins. Even here I didn't go into virtual spins. Can you publish the 3rd set as well! Hope we get virtual spins there so that I can show how this will work there!