Quote from: Gizmotron on June 06, 2018, 06:17:55 PM
I did read it. What you are suggesting as being a display of reality is only a fallacy. It's a good bit of sophistry too. It's the greatest lie since casinos ever opened their doors.


The casinos have drop boxes all over the table game areas that must balance against all chips removed and given to players during the days play. Some people that stay for days and take their chips up to their rooms also must be factored in. So a balance of taken in money and paid out money, confirmed by the cashier's desk, must result in a hard number of earnings. If a Blackjack player walks up to a Roulette table with a pocket full of $25 chips and starts playing that pile of chips then the simple balance at the table is thrown off. But the entire table game area is still in balance because only the table games have cash drop boxes and casino chips that need to be cashed in.


Your example of how much a casino takes in is theoretical mambo jumbo. There is a real count. If the average activity of the table game area results in a house edge of say 4% advantage to the house for example. Then over a years time the amount of money actually wagered should result in a 4% take as earnings from the activity of gambling in the table game area. You could say that out of a discovered number of bets placed, at an actual average value of each bet for the entire table playing area, a 4% return on those wagers was realized. That would be a hard and factual number. So where is the book keeping for that? If I were an IRS agent investigating or auditing these enterprises I would want to know the hard real numbers. If the casino was a publicly traded corporation then those real numbers would be published to see. Are you right? Do you know what the casino earns from the table gaming area of a casino?


I don't think it's just the house edge. I believe it is way more, do to human nature and greed. But, I will give you a chance to prove what I believe to be a ridiculous conclusion. I think that the single spin result rate for the Roulette table alone is exactly as expected by the probability numbers. But that the casino takes in far more from a gambler's session because of ignorance on the player's part.

You inspired me to write the following this afternoon, and I tried my best from my experiences, knoweldge and talking with industry people to write something, rather than cutting and pasting from the UNLV or other published sources, etc., et al:

#1) What you said.

#2) Checks and Balances.  For casino and regulatory purposes.  However, IMO, magazines, websites and industry journals have offered the various statistical figures in the wrong context to the general public and writers/authors have latched onto them for whatever reason to enhanced their stories/points/topics for credibility and official 'back up' of sorts to their content, etc.

#3) Numerous people inflict their reasoning and purposes for interpretation of what the industry makes use of for other accounting and governing reasons.

#4) But at each casino in comparison to another, there can be vast differences of generated revenue from player's losses or player's wins. 

For example:  Casino '1' with players 'A-H' could lose $1.5 Million dollars on baccarat one month and lose for several continuing months as well.

While Casino '2' with players 'I-P' could win $6.5 Million dollars on baccarat for the same month and continuing such win from the players for several months as well. 

While both of the examples will reflect the 'hold' of the table games section of each casino, neither one will reflect the figures each realizes upon the other or the industry for sake of statistical wins or losses.  Unless it is within and through a research paper that addresses that subject only for the point of what a game makes or losses in a certain geographical area or a period of times, etc.  But once again, will have no effect on what a player is compelled to do or does.

#5) I give an unknown/uncertain amount of my win chips or buy-in chis to another player, which wins or loses those at the same table or another table, etc.  Numerous other scenarios similar to that will always restrict the casino figures from staying internal for accounting procedures regarding their chips inventory and the cash player drop, etc., rather than a detailed and accurate accounting of what each player does or does not do, as far as wins and losses.  Casinos do have a much handle on the high-rollers/or CTR'd type of players 'wins and losses' with pretty close accuracy concerning those players wins and losses as compared to non CTR'd type of players, but once again, those figures are not filters back into the industry and available to be input to the large masses of table game players in order to label each one as to what they will or can do, etc.

#6)  If what Xander and a few other members claim is 100% gospel and accurate with the reported numbers, that means I would always in the long run score the set and published, 'loss' or '-HA' amount no matter what.  Which will not happen in reality.  In fallacy and theory you can say it will, but pretty much it will not. 

#7) HA's and everything else associated with those are not totally accurate because there most certainly are much larger losses and wins in relationship to the statistical '-HAs' published and set accordingly to various industry sources, conclusions and experts, etc., etc. 

#8) Statistical results over millions or billions of testing results do not change, agreed.  However, wins and losses are a total different and separate picture.  So many writers, people, message board authors, etc., grab a number that a test result yields for whatever reason and then claim, that same percentage is what a player will realize over the proverbial long-run. 
For example.  Casino '3' might have one player for 5 days and that player brings $20 Million dollars and losses it all.   Likewise casino '4', might have the same player or even different players for a period of time and that/those players win $20 Million dollars from that casino in contrast as to the other one.  This events do happen and will never reflect within the industry 'HAs' for the game in question. 

Bottom line is, if 1 billion shoes were dealt and the results produce a certain amount of bankers and players and ties, which the percentage will still remain the same no matter what 100 billion casino players won or lost at baccarat.  If you believe that a casino player will be governed to a certain definitive extent because of what the test results have proven, that is not correct. 


#9) Now, the one casino's good fortune that they earned has nothing at all to do with the other casino's lost revenues or drop, they paid out.  Although both will and do, in complete accuracy report to their state casino regulatory reporting regulations, the 'HA' does not and will not change no matter what it is.  Possibly their 'hold' on the players 'drop' will change but once again, that has nothing to do with what a player might or might not win or lose or have a chance of winning, etc.  It is merely for accounting and regulatory purposes.  Like I said, too many authors and researchers grad figures attempting to base something off of and give themselves justification for their content, etc.

Even if all casinos win or lose to their players, the '-HA' will still be there, be published, not change and stand as being valid and negative no matter what the players might have accomplished or not at their tables. 

#10) Same as a bicycle journal talking about children learning how to ride a bike.  Whereupon 15 kids out of every 20, based upon research and study of millions of kids, will fall a certain amount of times and out of the remaining 5, 3 of them will fall a certain amount and the other 2, will fall another amount.  As well, out of the 15, 3 and 2 kids out of every 20, a total of yet another amount will be injured seriously requiring an emergency room visit and yet a certain amount of the kids will wind up with a cast on a broken arm or leg form the results of those falls. 

However, while that applies to the test group of kids with extreme accuracy, it does not mean that out of every single equivalent group of kids, that the same amount will produce the same results.  Sure, out of billions and billions and billion, 'XYZ' amount was injured in various ways.  However, the consistency and the regularity for those injured really had no rhyme or reason when grouped together. 

The same with gambling and players at the casinos.

#11) Smaller casinos generally do not offer baccarat and high limit games because of the exposure and the fluctuations they cause.  Meaning, possible and large wins.  If it was a guaranteed for the casino property to hold '-HA' without any risk whatsoever and definitively, every casino would venture into the true high limit realms and also offer baccarat, etc. 

And, while exposure and fluctuation can hurt a player enormously, it can also help a player enormously.  Granted, most all players, at least the highest and greatest amount of them, will always give back win money amounts as well as go negatively with their buy-in/bank rolls, because all they do is attempt bigger, larger, greater and harder wins and win amounts.  That is where the '-HA' start to set in and take effect on the players.  But that percentage from those '-HA' are still not a governing tool that can precisely be implemented universally by the casino, it is still up to the player to miscalculate, misjudge, misalign himself and everything else along those lines with the downfalls that exists within each game. 

However, there are those players on the other hand, that learned and realized the real opportunities and advantages that will fuel his winning over his losses with some kind of systematic protocol involving most things I have talked about and detailed out, other than sheer and lonesome bet-placement and continued wagering. 

In all actuality, the players wins and losses will be far greater than those industry statistics regarding the 'HAs' no matter what they are set at. 

I.E.:  He might win far in excess than numerous other players and actually cash out, hold and not re-surrender that money to any casino.  On the other hand—he very well might and give back far in excess of what other players are actually recorded as losing. 

#12)  Now, for sake of simplicity, say there are 8 players at a bac table consistently for one month at one casino property.  Each bac player buys in with $1,000.00 and each bac player cashes out $980.00 at the end of each and every session for the entire month, each and every single day.  The casino can say they had a +2% Hold/Win off their bac table, in other words a '-2% HA' to the player. 

However, another period might have that very same casino seeing those very same players' cash out $1,020.00 at the end of every single session as well within the same period of time.  Then, the casino would be recording a -2% Loss/Payout off their bac table they would generally just reduce from their drop, whatever that was.  Whereas, the players all realized a +2% win rate.  But no matter which way it goes with varying amounts of wins and losses by the players, the statistical results have to stay the very same for the game.  That cannot change.  What individual players actually do and realize, has no bearing (NO BEARING WHATSOEVER) on the statistical 'HAs' of the game. 

Which can easily be checked if you take a state regulatory authorities win/loss rate off the bac tables, divide the number of players, know what their real buy-in was, as well as what they actually finished with and then totaling it all out with additions and divisions.  Which really can never be done in reality.  However, you can obtain the win/hold figures for a casinos bac tables, as well as the drop and it will be greater than that of the statistical results of the game proven by certain tests that are taking as industry correct standards. 

To myself, all the published numbers mean, is that all the total amount of money dropped into the casinos tables and an approximate deduction of chip inventory that was tracked to cashing out against that drop in general, equals that amount of money realized by the casino collectively from its players.  It has nothing to do with individual players doing an above average management of their own protocols and events they experienced.  As far as the industry statistics resulting from people or groups of researchers figuring out what certain games produce, in the way of '-HAs', I don't dispute those figures, just don't see any real use for them at the bac table or any other table by an individual in gauging his play, strategy, or attempting to respond to an opportunity that might be presenting itself or to a situation that would harm him.  Events, opportunities, advantages that are positive or even negative, cannot be gauged and are not regulated by the statistical outcomes of the games to correlate to the percentages produced by tests and histories.

#13) The bottom line is, you will lose or win what you are smart enough to realize is happening—as it is happening.  How to hold and continue to play or what you are unintelligent enough to fall prey to and continue believing in whatever it is, that propels yourself to whatever it is you are thinking and believing you will get to. 

Likewise, the bottom line is a kid will fall and possibly become injured dependent upon his training and instruction along with his supervision which may allow him to avoid falling and injuries as compared to other kids that received the same, lesser or even a greater amount of instruction, training and supervision.  Most will just say it was good luck or bad luck that the kid had.  But in most of the cases that is not true.  It really was dependent upon the kid's application, understanding and continued activity he was able to control or not control his actions within his pursuit of learning how to ride the bicycle that made the ultimate determination as to what would happen or not happen with the kid.  Therefore, the research groups that wrote up and reported all the falling and injuries broken down to every group of 20 kids, might or might not apply to your kid, not that they are wrong or inaccurate by any means.

If a game has approximately a '-1.25%' '-HA', that does not mean I will lose 1.25% of the hands I play or sit at every so many shoes, say 100 shoes or 1,000 shoes, etc.  Likewise, it does not mean I will win a total of 98.75 hands either.  Change the 100 to 10,000 or even 100,000 or 500,000 which is probably the long run for most everyone.  Unless I wager the exact same amount for the exact same 'even chance' wagers for the amount of hands that the '-HA' percentage was pulled from.  If it was a large enough test section of shoes/hands and pretty much no one does that anyway in their gambling pursuits.  IMO and pretty much that of most any rational person that actually does understand what those figures are all about, how they came about and their purposes. 

Thank You, Glen.

P.S.: [Written 6/6/2018 Copyright Glen/Alrelax. Cut & Paste file # 14532AN-BS-2-XAN]

Thank you for your time, great input, sharing and experience.  Defined, honest and available to those that are searching for advantages as well as disadvantages to gauge from.  I will vouch for Mark and the content of the 100% realism and possibilities of what he just wrote.

Thanks, Glen.

Quote from: Jimske on June 04, 2018, 03:01:08 PM
I guess I should have paid more attention.  Now it is confirmed that our very own  "Braggart-in-Chief" owns .cc.  Am I being negative? OR am I just stating a fact with a little sarcasm?  You decide.

Let's see if our new leader uses his vast "hard knocks" "25,000 shoes"+ (ahem) experience to promote real further understanding of the Baccarat game.

I can only offer my congratulations, Glen.  You're now the big fish in our little pond!

No Jimske, I am not.  You guys are all the big fish in our pond.  'Ours' in my definition means, yours and mine and others too.  Just I might be the lifeguard is all.  I do know how to swim. 

You know Mark, I have done a lot of varied things in my 40 years as an adult, or so.  You read lots of my writings, here and elsewhere, I would only assume.  Reading what you just wrote, over a cup of fresh coffee---my buddy from New York City is here with me right now as well.  The one I occasional gamble with, whom is a 30 year +retired Vet of law enforcement.  We were both young Metro Dade Police Officers in the early Miami Vice days in South Florida.  We both went to the police academy together and we were both high school friends.  Both of us resigned from Metro-Dade the sign day and we both moved to New York City from there.  He stayed into law enforcement with the NYPD and I went off into other things.

He was ultimately the Arnold Schwarzenegger of the NYPD along with a handful of others, no doubt.  But being on Truck 1 in Manhattan, ESU (Emergency Service Unit, SWAT and more) he retired with a chest full of medals, in fact he has so many--there is no way could wear them all on his full dress blues at one time, seriously.  I admire him in many ways, but when we both wound up in a rural part of the Midwest within 30 miles of each other a few years ago, without any communication or knowledge of each other's relocation to the present locale we are residing in, it blew our minds.  He told me a while back, about his transformation, realization and love of having a 10+ acres hobby horse farm, ATV's, motorcycles, dune buggies, horses and the ability to ride down a dirt road, no helmet, no cars, a beer in hand, doing twice the speed limit posted somewhere, and if he just happens to spot one of the 5 Sheriif's on patrol in the county, he waves to them and they salute him.  This is a guy that loved to propel off buildings, cut through traffic in Manhattan, side swipe a vehicle while proceeding to a '10-13' (officer shot or down or hostage situation, etc.) and work 48 hours without going home or sleeping, etc., etc.  A guy that would grab a soda and a slice of pizza on a busy intersection corner, telling his dispatcher he is caught in traffic before proceeding to the next call because he was having stomach cramps from not eating for 15 hours or so.  Playing baccarat with him is another experience and experience beyond the 14 player tables I played on in Atlantic City for decades.

Like wise, I done many things of varied nature since leaving partnership with him at Metro-Dade back in the extreme late 70's and early 80's.  At times I do kind of wish I did not do some of them and other times, I love everything I did, experienced and was involved in.  When I actually do deduce down and really give thought to it, I do not actually regret anything I did or did not do (to the point of resentment and dwelling or throwing up road blocks, etc.)--because  I simply do not think my life could have been more exciting, valuable or memorable than what I actually lived and experienced.   I am whom I am and I usually do not get involved with what most say, "I wish I never did that", or "My life sucked and I wish I could have had the chance to do 'so and so' or 'such and such' or something along those lines", etc. 

The 'human factor'......................Yes Sir, not just gambling, but in everything.  Like that little 5 year old carbon copy of myself in the posting I wrote the other day, my little boy.  How I channel the tangibles to him and giving him every single thing I never ever had or was not available when I/we were kids.  Seeing that smile, getting that hug, having him wrap those arms around me and say, "Daddy, you are the greatest and I am not just kidding you", stuff like that is a terrific way to continue in my upcoming 60's.  Especially after that little kid saying a couple of months ago, "Daddy, no more birthdays for you"!  I asked him why?  He says, "Because with every birthday you get older and then one day in 20 or 30 years you have to die and I never want you to do that, Okay--so no more birthdays for you from now on".  That's myself right there and my fuel for most everything I do, playing baccarat or otherwise. 

The 'failures'....................Yeah, we all had them, just some of us (a whole lot) will not say what they were or recognize them or in fact, use them for their own benefit.  Because, I do something and profit from it in whatever way, shape or form, does not mean it is worthless, senseless, does not really exist, etc., or exclusive or mine only.  But for others to come in and say, 'That does not exist, wrong or you are lying' usually means, jealousy, failure, etc., of their own mind and protocols/believes, or just plain resentment of someone doing something 'successfully or profitably' that they tried and failed at for whatever real reasoning.  Such as, someone that tried what I am successful at or enjoy and they are not and hate or causes them grief.  I do the same thing but with refinement to make it work for myself, that they fail to notice, see, observe or explore, touch and witness for themselves before making their statements, that they declare facts back up by 'such and such', etc.  Gambling related and/or otherwise. 

Quote from: Gizmotron on June 04, 2018, 12:50:47 PM
"I know you are but what am I." -- that's it? Yikes. Are you enjoying the implication of the other thread? They completely impeach decades of accepted thought in that discussion. Your edge argument just dried up and died on the vine. It's fun to see a good logical argument refute past dogma. You can no longer demagogue your saintly position. Your tower is crumbling. nanner nanner nanner 

I remember several downfalls and negative "such and such's" someone named Mark admitted and faced and it was on this board, no?  Which to me, for whatever it is worth to anyone else, awards huge credibility, credence and experience(s) of great value from the Yale or Harvard equivalent of the 'University of Hard Knocks & Value'.  Double period.

Quote from: AsymBacGuy on June 03, 2018, 08:39:09 PM


Casinos advantages:

- math edge
- infinite bankroll vs limite players' bankrolls
- betting limits
- no emotions involved as they know the final positive outcome

Possible players advantages:

- selecting at most the situations to bet
- adapting a proper MM knowing that losing sessions or losing weeks are inevitable as a strategic plan can only get the best of it in a very diluted fashion. The same is true for casinos which may stay losers for long.

We can't alter the casinos advantages, just working on our possible advantages.

as.

Asym,

Spot on in summation.  There are numerous other Psych/Emotional/Vision/Desires, 'cons' or 'pros' that prey and hamper or pat a positive player on the back and encourage them.  Problem is, and a huge one--is almost all players have no clue or idea what those are and when they do set in--the player is usually defensive and resistant to the max--thus, falling prey or just plain being greedy/stupid, or whatever to the casino that is neutral and has that unlimited bankroll and cash for what they need to do, etc.

Problem is, IMO and after decades of playing, experience, family members of management in casinos admissions, etc., etc., is that the players will attack just those things you talked about with probably (unofficial and IMO) upwards of 90% of the time---the very first thing you mentioned:  "math edge" and work something out on their computer, paper, test programs, etc., and then attack for years and years knowing inside of them---"This has to work and it will work" therefore, missing what actually will work.  Maybe not on paper and maybe not with an elaborate arithmetical and scientific detailed proof statements, analysis and theory---etc., etc., but certainly does work 100% of the approx. 70-80% of the time.  The problem is, and maybe it is a quagmire---when we find ourselves in that ugly 20-30% of the time/space/section--we lose all decent and productive thought/goals/knoweldge and the ability to use of our experience, etc.  100% of the 'XYZ' time?  No, not double talk--my way of explaining you find what does win--because there is certainly a whole lot of winning going on at the bac tables, just almost everyone gives it back and then drains themselves for countless reasons and excuses as I pretty much wrote about on the board.  The entire 'key trigger/trick' is that player hold/realization/consciousness/decision making process outside of your body/and total conscious manipulation of your buy-in and win money without regard to goals, desires and what is sitting in front of you and your eyes in the dealer's rack, etc., etc., etc.  Longer and much more elaborately involved as some of us realize and are aware of. 

I remain.  Thank you for your great experiences you attempt to explain or bring-out here.

Quote from: Gizmotron on June 03, 2018, 01:21:47 PM
Just think of it as a toxic mess that needs to be cleaned up. Anyone can see the level of civility is monitored and kept to a very high standard here at this forum, as juxtaposed by the conduct seen on other forums. There will always be trolls. There will always be the mathBoyz vs the educated guessers. All that really matters is that both parties are attempting to put a dent in the casino's bottom line. The, "I'm better than you" game is just part of our fun and games. I like to watch GreenGuy blast Ken with his nasty disparaging pejoratives on another forum. It's funny too. And best of all, Ken comes back and delivers his zingers too. It's just a different style of communication. This place can be like herding cats at times. The other place is free but rude to the max. The point "is to keep talking;" -- Pink Floyd

And that is exactly why I contacted him and brought him back and we started with a clean slate and we shook hands last night and had a long conversation and he is going to be one of our key players here and he's going to have his own blog space that we are creating now thank you appreciate the support mark!!

Quote from: Mike on June 03, 2018, 07:19:55 AM
If the game is fair then in the long run you will break even, but even offering a fair game the casino is still likely to win because they have an infinite bank in comparison with any individual player. Look up "Risk of Ruin" for the math.

That wouldn't prove anything, and it's easy with hindsight to say "I would have quit here" AFTER the session. The truth is in some sessions you will never get ahead.

Of course, you will win in the long run.

I agree with you that the house edge isn't the ONLY factor; poor discipline and money management certainly contribute much to the casino's coffers which they wouldn't get if gamblers didn't use silly progressions and continually "reinvest" their winnings until they lose everything, but self discipline and sensible money management should be givens; they are necessary but not sufficient for success. The overriding factor is getting an edge in the first place, only then should you focus on MM and discipline, they are certainly not substitutes for an edge. And variance is not the enemy as many gamblers seem to think. If you have no edge it's the only way you can win in the short term, and if you have an edge it's irrelevant.

Mike's responses are 100% dead on accurate, not fully explained but totally correct, IMO.

Quote from: TheMagician on June 03, 2018, 07:14:19 AM
A good decision  

Glen has always contributed and supported this forum with great amounts of creative thinking, exciting stories and much, much more for a very long time. Allowing him to take hold of the steering wheel will certainly keep this craft rolling on, with a good stability, on a road with a bright future and exciting views.

I do appreciate very much that positive statement you just made. Unfortunately on message boards negativity and derogatory statements have great and  more impact and drama oriented support by what is usually the minority because the majority doesn't want to get entangled with them. It's the same thing with restaurant reviews on such websites as Yelp and other numerous sites where the negativity stands out in much more detail and some other people jump on the bandwagon and normally if everything's okay or positive it doesn't get written about and only a few will  Rave about it and most people will think that's the owner by proxy or a friend of the owner or something along those lines. I know numerous people on this board alone do not want entangle with the handful that will try to drag everybody and everything down, just for the sparring effect and I guess you could just say--to stir the pot and have it bubble over. But like I said, I do appreciate what you just posted thank you. Very much!

Quote from: Xander on June 02, 2018, 06:18:26 PM
Mike,

Gizmo doesn't comprehend the math.  He really sucks at it.  He's a "literate boy," but not one of the "mathboyz."

Give it a break please.  Let others enjoy and be involved without the negativity you are starting to bring on.  Please.  Thank you.

Hey all,

GreenGuy is back on.  I got a phone call from some unintelligent police officer Down-under telling me GreenGuy was locked up.  Oh lord!  I posted his bond and he is out of that jail this morning!  I think it was a high speed pursuit by the unintelligent cops working for a living, GreenGuy just got wiped out at the bac table and he looks at the dealer, picks up the shoe, throws it in the middle of the pit and reaches in and grabs a hand full or two of chips.  Gets to his car and later is picked up by those cops on patrol.  Led them on a 300 mile high speed pursuit in the outback and finally took 9 of them to handcuff him.  His car ran out of gas!   Fast forward, he is out of jail! 

Welcome back.  Didn't someone say, 'Can't we all just get along'?

Quote from: AsymBacGuy on June 01, 2018, 09:24:40 PM
Ok Al, a 0.25% mistake is quite acceptable :-))

as.

Only because  my great grandmother comes from that town in between Naples and Sorrento, Torre Annunziata where they used to have like 100+ pasta factories before the war and now there is like only 2 left.  I forgive you.

Quote from: AsymBacGuy on June 01, 2018, 09:11:36 PM
Xander is absolutey right, but I'd change his words in "nobody CAN'T DEMONSTRATE to win itlr without an edge".

If anybody can demonstrate to win at games without a mathematical edge he would be millionaire without placing a dime on the felt.
The problem is to present a valid scientific evidence of such claim.

Every other attempt to say "hey, I'm consistently winning" without scientifically proving it is a total mere bighornshit. No matter how good or smart will appear the author or the hypothesis involved at the start. 
Especially whether such winning players are placing red or, rarely, green chips.

A final world: Glen hadn't written worse ideas than anybody else and, hey, he's not wagering red or green chips at the table. So i would use more respect for him.

as.

And you are 'almost' exactly correct, I can't agree 100%, lets just say 99.75% (LOL). 

I wager red chips for the dealers, LOL.  I wager stacks of green at a min., the ajority fo the times.  Anyways, I win a heck of a lot greater than I lose and when I lose it is always replaced with wins and I have all kinds of funds that are from my tangible reward from the risk.  I am writing a piece on that as a final thought on it since some people here cloud the air with their twisting and turning of words written or expressed.

This made my day at 2:04PM, a huge cup of coffee and 2 after lunch donuts for this one!

From Gizmo:  "I don't mind people disagreeing and even embarrassingly taking turns to defensive expressions if they lose it. I like watching people losing their cool. It means that they have lost their capacity to back up a position. Like it or not they are taking a position."

Which just happened within this thread, 110%!

Okay, I am leaving anyway.   

Quote from: Blue_Angel on June 01, 2018, 06:20:03 PM

Why those people you are talking about don't step forward to prove what you are claiming?
How do we know if you are talking about a small minority or the vast majority??
All we have are your claims, nothing more.
If you want to buy the forum and make it the way you consider proper it's all fine with me since I'm not planing to stay around much longer.
Last but not least, I don't give a stuff about your personal life because you are not my friend or relative.
Do you get it?!

Excellent, the end, over.  We see eye-to-eye perfectly.  We are past the planning stages as you suggest thou.  But do appreciate your thoughts and comments and wishes.