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[Azim]

Instead of 14 from rear i have used 10.

I have detailed the log as follows.

The steps I have taken:

1) The original shuffle.
2) Produced a listing after the cut amount.
3) Deck after the first card and burn cards.

If the above is all correct from the log file. The only place an error can happen is in the 3rd card rule.

So yes you might be right. However, the log file does contain every hand played. So if someone really wants to check the details play by play to find out where the error is, if there is one.

[21 Aces]

Simple case:

Cut 1 First Hand:
Bank: 4 + 5 = 9
Player:  Picture + Picture = 0

Cut 2 Second Hand:
Bank: Ace + 3 + 4 = 8
Player:  3 + 3 = 6

Now take the exact same shoe with a different cut that is exactly 4 cards deeper than Cut 1
Cut 2 First Hand:
Bank: Ace + 3 + 4 = 8
Player:  3 + 3 = 6

Cut 2 Last Hand:
Bank: 4 + 5 = 9
Player:  Picture + Picture = 0

Alternatively, if you take the exact same shoe with a different cut that is NOT exactly 4 cards deeper than Cut 1 or that land exactly at the end of another hand in Cut 1, you arrive at a completely different progression (series of Bank vs. Player wins throughout).

[Azim]

I am not sure what you saying.

However, like I said. I have all the details in the log file. I couldn't find anything wrong.

If someone wants to go through the log file and point a mistake out. I am willing to change and fix the error.

The rest I see it to be correct. I could be wrong. However, unless someone points out and goes through the log, I can't fix something I don't know.

[alrelax]

Most of you guys are so far off when it actually comes to shuffling.  I don't know about every jurisdiction but I do about Vegas and the major ones.  As far as a casino here and there in small markets, I don't know.  Anyway, I emailed to Nick Kallos (he owns a long time state licensed casino dealing school in Las Vegas 'Learn2deal.Com') and here is his reply to show you. 

I do know so many of the casinos do a quick breakdown and shuffle even when the cards come out of the auto-shuffler. 

QUESTION:

My question was when they are coming out of the auto-shuffler, as most casinos have moved to the auto-shuffler. Straight from the auto-shuffler to be cut or are they supposed to do a 'quick shuffle'?

ANSWER:

NORMALLY YES, THEY WILL SHUFFLE,IT IS UP TO THE CASINO,THEY WILL ALL HAVE DIFFRENT RULES,AND IN BIG BACC THERE WILL BE CASINOS THAT DO NOT HAVE SHUFFLERS..

[21 Aces]

Our shoes go straight from a Shuffle Master to a cut which may be done by a guest.  There is no manual shuffling done on the floor by dealers. I would take a Shuffle Master shuffle any day over a hand shuffled shoe or Shuffle Master shuffle plus hand shuffle as a dealer could manipulate the shuffle.  Likely? NO, but possible.

My posts on the shuffle and the impact of the cut are correct.  Maybe the way I am stating it is not clear enough.  The hands are either displaced with a cut aligned with current end of hands or a new shoe/ progressions are created.  The latter case is most likely as there are more points in a shoe mid-hand than at the end of a hand.

[alrelax]

Regardless, the shoes can never be set up in the favor of a casino with a random card cut.  The cards behind the cut will be changed and the ones that was moved to the back (forward of the cut) will also be out of any order they came out of the shuffler in.  The decisions prior to getting to that section that was moved, has to be changed because of an unknown amount of 5th and 6th card draws before getting to that section of cards.

Just for giggles, I ask my daughter about this as she works with the NGC in Las Vegas on issues with slot machines for the company she is employed by on behalf on the casinos.  The NGC told her they do take and perform random audits on each casinos auto shufflers to assure that in fact, they are random and there are no patterns being produced.  They have a test to quickly surface any wrongdoing in that area.  Take that for what it is worth, I am merely relying information regarding this.

[21 Aces]

Regardless, the shoes can never be set up in the favor of a casino with a random card cut.  The cards behind the cut will be changed and the ones that was moved to the back (forward of the cut) will also be out of any order they came out of the shuffler in.  The decisions prior to getting to that section that was moved, has to be changed because of an unknown amount of 5th and 6th card draws before getting to that section of cards.

Just for giggles, I ask my daughter about this as she works with the NGC in Las Vegas on issues with slot machines for the company she is employed by on behalf on the casinos.  The NGC told her they do take and perform random audits on each casinos auto shufflers to assure that in fact, they are random and there are no patterns being produced.  They have a test to quickly surface any wrongdoing in that area.  Take that for what it is worth, I am merely relying information regarding this.

^This. 
Can rigging occur?  YES. 
Likely? VERY MUCH NO.
Has it occurred?  YES.
Risk to the casino in gaming violations if they are caught?  HIGH.


I made a thread a while back about how some players believe that shoes are actively rigged off floor by The Dark Wizard and his Black Riders.  I'll have to see whether I deleted it or not.

Gaming Gone Insane - Baccarat Edition
http://betselection.cc/baccarat-forum/gaming-gone-insane-baccarat-edition/msg47586/#msg47586


This should be most experienced players if they think about the dynamic of the shuffle and the cut on a great shoe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzP3kyAukHw

[alrelax]

Don't know about your gaming jurisdiction but ours here in the Midwest has no problem with cutting twice if we ask and as well, we can request a quick shuffle when the cards come out of the auto shuffler, they have no problem to comply with our request if we ask.  Lots of the casino do in Vegas, quick shuffle, after the come out of the auto shuffler, not all thou.  If your does not and all the players got together and demanded it, I bet you there would be a quick change on the properties part.

[Azim]

What was the final verdict, do I have the 3rd card rule wrong?

[goez]

Azim,

Could you please produce two more shoes with cut point exactly 4 decks apart?
My guess is the patterns would be very much different.

[Azim]

What's the point if the 3rd card rules are wrong?

[goez]

The 3rd cards rules are correct.
It is the 3rd cards rules that plays the "catch up" games and once"synchronized" the rest of the patters would be identical.
So my guess is if two identical shoes having cut points as far apart(4 decks + burnt cards)as possible, the chance of catching up is next to nil, then the patterns would be much different.

[alrelax]

Your ways of thinking are totally ridiculous!

Simply with a different position cut and a different burn card, every shoe cannot and never will hold the same darn patterns/results/decisions, no possible way!!!!

Sure, there might be a similar result here and there for a small section or even a half a shoe to almost resemble another, but no possible way the results could be the way they came out.  I was taking it to the extreme with the same set up of cards, which would never ever happen in a licensed casino, but my point is to prove like I said, a different cut and a burn card, the auto shuffler cannot set up a certain outcome. 

[21 Aces]

FML - I forgot about the burn cards.  It still could theoretically line up even with two different cuts and sets of burn cards.

[Azim]

Here we go. I have done 2 sets for the 2 sets I have used so far.
Detailed log is attached as well.