I felt so injustified after posting the Finale crossing framework, as eventhough it simplifies things to a large extent, it is something for very advanced and professional players. Not for the fellow forumers who look for easy things to play. When I say easy, i mean outside bets. Easy to track, easy to understand, easy to play.
So how simple can simple get? While deep professional and advanced players can look at Finales and crossings and other frameworks to follow in the finale chapter, what can i share with fellow forumers who like to keep things simple. The answer is the 123 framework.
Basic concept 1 : Repeaters
How amazed we are to identify that there are so many repeaters. How often have we seen a column repeat, a dozen repeat and one of the even chances repeat. As often as we breath! How do we take advantage of it in a controlled way as simply betting on a even chance to repeat is not going to statistically get us up all the time.
Basic concept 2 : Risk
As Manrique successfully exhibited, progression need not depend on increasing the units. It can also be done effectively parachuting across various locations in the table. What a gem of a rule. How can we drive maximum mileage from this simple concept?
Basic concept 3 : Production and recovery
Every gambler will know that there has to be a production strategy and there has to be a recovery strategy. It could vary between attack and defense or defense and attack depending on your style of play. However these need not be two different strategies. Things would be very simple if we can combine these into one single framework. But can we do it?
The idea is simple. I will explain the whole framework in 5 easy steps.
1. Choose your preferred even chance(prefer colours). Bet for the last occured even chance to repeat for the next 3 spins with a progression of 1, 2, 3. On any hit reset the progression. This is the production step.
2. If you complete 1 2 3 and did not get a hit, chose the dozen that came last and bet 1 2 3 units on this dozen for the next 3 spins. Stop and reset progression on any hit. If you reach a new high move back to even chance and step 1. This is the recovery step.
3. If you complete 1 2 3 and did not get a hit, choose the double street that came last and bet 1 2 3 units on this double street for the next 3 spins. If a hit move back to dozens if you are not in a new high BR. If at a new high BR move back to even. This is the second recovery step.
4. If you complete 1 2 3 in double street and did not get a hit, stay there until you get a hit or 3 losses. On a hit move back to dozens. On 3 losses, move to even chances.
5. On 3 losses and moving to even chances, increase the unit size by 1 unit. On recovering completely playing with this increased unit size move back to 1 unit. On a complete series loss increase the unit size by 1 unit. The cycle goes on.
Beauty of the system. No huge draw downs. You will recover easily. You will hardly go into the cyclic progressions. Very simple to follow, as no detailed tracking needs to be done. Worship the power of simplicity!!! All powerful concepts combined into one framework.
Lets do examples now. See attached for the play. I have used the first 100 spins from 4 tables of wiesbaden from yesterday. All elements covered in the framework are covered across these 4 tables played. As always keep winning and keep it simple!
Thank you, very nice, (simple that even I can understand it!) :D
d'alembert after every loss of three continuous 123 losses in double street level. refer table 7 example.
Quote from: GreatGrampa on May 17, 2013, 04:34:02 PM
d'alembert after every loss of three continuous 123 losses in double street level. refer table 7 example.
Yes, I read it now in the file. Thank you :thumbsup:
Grampa! Thank you very much for sharing your framework with us :applause:
You know I certainly enjoy a good Production & Recovery framework. Kudos to you for putting yours in such a beautiful, concise, approachable way :nod:
I've been playin this now for hour or so, this is my understading of this system (and how i play it)
* First of all, progression need to be modified. I use a much more agressive progression (since profits are hard to get when playing with your suggested progression) OK
* Second, I don't know if i follow the rules, but this is how i play it; I begin with EC's. --> First start betting on Even/Odd (followinig last outcome) for 3 spins. IF that hit. --> Next bet is Red/Black.(following last) OK if that hit --> Next i bet on High/Low(following last) OK that hit--> Next I go back to Even/Odd... and so on...this is the cycle i bet on for EC's. IF at any stage no hit for 3 turns, I go betting on Dozens.
Dozens--> if hit during 3 spins I go back to betting on EC's (starting with Odd/Even...that cycle decribed) IF not, then i go betting on a doublestreet.
Doublestreet-->if hit during 3 spins I go back betting on Dozens. IF not I continue betting on *a new* doublestreet (current hit) for 3 spins... and so on until I get One hit. THEN Go back to betting on Dozens, after one hit. Ok
Progression I use a very agressive progression +2 for each loss. Reset to *2u* at hit (at any stage). 2u is minimum bet. So progression would look like this: 2-4-6-8-10-12-14-16..... and so on.
I've made +50u now playing this for half an hour. (at paddypower NewAR-roulette)...
Thanks you GreatGrandpa for this system! (with my modifications) :thumbsup:
Quote from: ignatus on May 17, 2013, 05:35:41 PM
Thanks you GreatGrandpa for this system! (with my modifications) :thumbsup:
I am glad you liked it and mod it to suit your play. In an attempt to make it simple and understandable I didn't explain certain elements in the system when I posted it. While the framework remains those 5 steps, I wAnted to go a little deeper into the concepts on why each element is important. every element including progression has been modified over and over mor than 2000 sessions to get to a state it currently is. Will explain this week when I find more time.
Quote from: ignatus on May 17, 2013, 05:35:41 PM
* First of all, progression need to be modified. I use a much more agressive progression (since profits are hard to get when playing with your suggested progression) OK
Progression I use a very agressive progression +2 for each loss. Reset to *2u* at hit (at any stage). 2u is minimum bet. So progression would look like this: 2-4-6-8-10-12-14-16..... and so on.
Ignatus,
Thought before getting into the concept, will explain with some example on why a 123 strategy is more aggressive than what you have mentioned as an aggressive progression.
Lets see what is the maximum drawdown for this framework per session. It is 30 units considering we lost the entire cycle (123 on EC, 123 on DZ, 123 on DS for 3 times). However the maximum draw down on your progression is 240 units (2,4,6.....28, 30), which is 8 times the risk that i have taken.
To do a comparison we need to get to level ground in terms of the amount we are ready to risk. We cannot get your progression down to 30 units, so I up my risk to 240 units. That indicates that the base unit size for 123 progression is 8 units for risking a drawdown of 240 units. (240/30).
Lets take a set of 10 spins to see how it works on your aggressive progression.
[reveal=It gives us +4 units for these spins as below.]
Spin Bet BR Comment
5 Bet on red for the next 3 spins
28 2 -2
24 4 -6
7 6 0 We are resetting progression on hit. Also, staying EC red for another 3 spins
13 2 -2
25 4 +2
33 2 0
13 4 -4
7 6 +2
32 2 +4
[/reveal]
Lets see how it works with 123 progression. Hurray!
[reveal=We get +16units for the same risk. ]
Spin Bet BR Comment
5 Bet on red for the next 3 spins
28 8 -8
24 16 -16
7 24 0 We are resetting progression on hit. Also, staying EC red for another 3 spins
13 8 -8
25 16 +8
33 8 0
13 16 -16
7 24 +8
32 8 +16
[/reveal]
So as you can see, 123 progression is controlled in draw-down, but aggressive in reaping profits for this framework. Hope I make sense.
Now, why 123 progression?
Two reasons to it.
1. Remember when we were reading Production and recovery. While we are adopting production and recovery by parachuting between ECs (production), dozens(recovery) and double streets (second recovery), we are doing the same within each of those as well. So 123 is a derivation of the 1st bet 1 unit for production, 2nd bet 2 unit for 1st level of recovery and 3rd bet 3 unit for 2nd level of recovery. Our aim of production is to get into positive, 1st recovery is to recover from the loss at production stage on a high and 2nd recovery is to recover from the above two steps at par. that's the reason, if you carefully read, we are not going to wait until a new high to move back from DS to DZ after a hit, while we wait until a new high to move back from DZ to EC.
2. As we have all seen, great frameworks thrive on keeping your cycle size to 36 units. 123 progression is an attempt to do that. We have tried to keep the maximum drawdown before we get out of the session on 3 continuous 123 losses on Double streets as 36 (123 on EC, 123 on DZ, 123 3 times on DS and I have allowed for two zeroes to come in when we are betting 3 units).
Why only 1 even chance and not 3 even chances like triple shooter
This framework thrives on taking all the opportunities under through parachuting between ECs, DZs and DSs. So when we are doing this, we need to ensure that we are not missing any specific trends that come our way in ECs on the production cycle. If we stray between all 3 even chances alternating for every 123 cycle, there is a higher probability of we missing a very productive trend. that's why we stick to one EC instead of straying between 3 ECs.
Also, my preference would be to stick to either colours or Even/odd for the EC, because we don't want to tie our ECs to DZs.
Here is my video explaining this. +20 units in 17 spins.
123 Framework (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuUiKsiMRAY#)
thank you for this GG
just quick tested it and got +30 in 80 spins :thumbsup:
can you tell us please what was the largest DD you ever had playing this? What was the largest bet per cycle?
thanks again
EDIT:
btw did you try to maybe after the line losses use the streets, then the split and then the single number?
I ask cause I just tested and had a loss cycle, if going to streets and then splits... would have made it out
Great Video GreatGramps.
Excellently shown method, and clearly explained.
Newbies should seize on this and run with it!
Hello . .
This is a system to be kept in your portfolio of good ones.
I posted a bot sheet in the ExcelBot section of the forum but anyone can download it and use it manually.
You just have to remember to increase/decrease your bets via D'Alembert by your self. Our bot does it automatically.
Enjoy and thanks Great Grampa . .
Nick
Just won another 10 E with it. DD was 11.5
Quote from: FLAT_IN_O on May 21, 2013, 04:05:56 PM
What about columns...wouldn't it qualify in above bet.
Flat you are a star :cheer: . You closed one more missing link in my puzzle. There is truth when the ancestors said, knowledge is the only stuff which can multiply by sharing. Refer to my original choice on why I didn't pick up High low for even chances.
Quote from: GreatGrampa on May 21, 2013, 10:39:28 AM
Also, my preference would be to stick to either colours or Even/odd for the EC, because we don't want to tie our ECs to DZs.
In the same lines to obtain greater results, we should not tie the DZs to lines. So columns will be a better option for hte second stage compared to dozens. This will give us three mutually exclusive bets for all our 3 stages. :) I should start modifying the framework to suit this.
7
Quote from: Nickmsi on May 21, 2013, 03:47:13 PM
I posted a bot sheet in the ExcelBot section of the forum but anyone can download it and use it manually.
:thumbsup: Nick. Greatly appreciate your work. The link for those who follow the thread is
Bot excel (http://betselection.cc/index.php?action=post;quote=14839;topic=1744.0)
Quote from: soggett on May 21, 2013, 01:12:21 PM
thank you for this GG
just quick tested it and got +30 in 80 spins :thumbsup:
can you tell us please what was the largest DD you ever had playing this? What was the largest bet per cycle?
thanks again
I have never played this system for more than the 2nd stage of d-alembert. But that doesn't mean that it will go beyond it as i always play in live casinos with a mix and match of frameworks. So don't take my words for hte drawdon and big bets. May be Sam will be able to answre this question better as he is botting and sure would have crossed more than 1000 spins :)
Quote from: soggett on May 21, 2013, 01:12:21 PM
EDIT:
btw did you try to maybe after the line losses use the streets, then the split and then the single number?
I ask cause I just tested and had a loss cycle, if going to streets and then splits... would have made it out
The reason is because the odds on them are not great for our framework that i have explained so far. We will get more losses than gain cycles. There is a second part where we will go into those territory, which i shall explain when most of us have got our head around this. At the moment i would like to keep it simple :)
Quote from: GreatGrampa on May 22, 2013, 04:07:36 PM
Flat you are a star :cheer: . You closed one more missing link in my puzzle. There is truth when the ancestors said, knowledge is the only stuff which can multiply by sharing.
--I simply mentioned it cause when I play in casino,usually play/mix about 5 diff.methods,
including columns and dozens.
--In my country they say;Donkey + man,know more then man alone.
;D at first, i really thought GreatGrampa == FLAT_IN_O ;D
Quote from: marvin on May 22, 2013, 05:01:09 PM
;D at first, i really thought GreatGrampa == FLAT_IN_O ;D
--Jesus Christ,Marv,
Compering my English to his,it's obvious who is who.
Except that we think similar as far as roulette is concerned.
I agree. I'd know the FLATman anywhere.
Sam
Quote from: FLAT_IN_O on May 22, 2013, 06:04:29 PM
--Jesus Christ,Marv,
Compering my English to his,it's obvious who is who.
Except that we think similar as far as roulette is concerned.
hahaha sorry flat, am not reading his post(sorry gramps), I'm just basing it on usernames.
youve been with lots of usernames(and wives too ;D ) so i thought greatgramps is just one of your usernames.
and by the way i like this framework :) honest.
paddypower is pulling my leg, its already giving me +150 :o
i am still looking/waiting for that HHUUUUGEEE DD
Hi GreatGrampa
Thanks for sharing this great system, the videos and also for keeping it very nice and simple until everyone gets the hang of it etc......... :cheer:
Cheers
Rouletta
i don't like this :o +250 in paddy.
moving to dublinbet
Hello, we always +1 on progression even if we are deep in the hole?
Quote from: marvin on May 22, 2013, 08:35:07 PM
i don't like this :o +250 in paddy.
moving to dublinbet
I don't get what is your problem with winning mate ??? :o
Is it bad when vacuum cleaner really "sucks"? :))
Drazen
Quote from: FLAT_IN_O on May 22, 2013, 06:04:29 PM
--Jesus Christ,Marv,
Compering my English to his,it's obvious who is who.
Except that we think similar as far as roulette is concerned.
LOL....I have a Flatino radar fitted. Can spot you a mile off.....respect though....you're a cool guy.
Quote from: Turner on May 22, 2013, 09:05:48 PM
LOL....I have a Flatino radar fitted. Can spot you a mile off.....respect though....you're a cool guy.
Ha, I love it when Turner plays Columbo
Quote from: Buffalowizard on May 22, 2013, 10:01:23 PM
Ha, I love it when Turner plays Columbo
I prefer Sherlock.....lol
....or The Pink Panther!! lol
Quote from: Chrisbis on May 22, 2013, 10:24:21 PM
....or The Pink Panther!! lol
He was another Northerner
Durham.......Durham........Durham, Durham, Durham
East or west. Londoners are the best >:D
Quote from: zabbot on May 22, 2013, 08:43:32 PM
Hello, we always +1 on progression even if we are deep in the hole?
Depends on your stop loss. We always try to take one step at a time, when climbing out a deep hole unless you are dead. Same here. As long as your stop loss allows, go +1 at a time
Quote from: GreatGrampa on May 22, 2013, 04:13:39 PM
I have never played this system for more than the 2nd stage of d-alembert. But that doesn't mean that it will go beyond it as i always play in live casinos with a mix and match of frameworks. So don't take my words for hte drawdon and big bets. May be Sam will be able to answre this question better as he is botting and sure would have crossed more than 1000 spins :)
The reason is because the odds on them are not great for our framework that i have explained so far. We will get more losses than gain cycles. There is a second part where we will go into those territory, which i shall explain when most of us have got our head around this. At the moment i would like to keep it simple :)
thanks for your answear GG
looking forward to the next step :thumbsup:
i wonder where are those guys who are always testing systems on a million spins.
i really wanted to see how deep is the DD of this system.
We all know that in the long run we're all dead.......; Been there done that.....so why bother with millions of spins testing .......???
As long it's working for me right here, right now it's what matters to me......Up to now it's excellent, it's one of the best framework
I have seen in my life........Just my two cents. Thanks for sharing Grampa.
Rouletta
When our bets are 1 unit and we move to Dozens and win ot the first, but we are still behind in the cycle what next?
Continue on dozens
Quote from: GreatGrampa on May 23, 2013, 10:09:17 PM
Continue on dozens
That's an additional rule eh!
I will add it to my play...............and its going very well thank u. :applause:
Chrisbis, may I ask what casino u playing at.....? Live wheel, auto, RNG....??
Marvin
Today I went to level 12 in the D'Alembert and recovered. I don't like going that deep, but what do you do? Shut 'er down and start over or stick to the plan.
Either can toast your buns.
Sam
yay! that's really too deep Sam :nope:
is it a straight to level 12 loss?
i did my own test last night via betvoyager and its giving me a +. :D
now i am trying to do a reverse of this framework if its more profitable simply because the hit rate will increase.
say you will
1. start with a double street.
2. on 3 loss increase unit move to dozen/column, move step 1 on new high
3. on 3 loss increase unit move to EC on a 3 step marty , move step 1 on new high
am using a mac so i can't really test it via RX
Quote from: marvin on May 24, 2013, 08:01:23 AM
now i am trying to do a reverse of this framework if its more profitable simply because the hit rate will increase.
say you will
1. start with a double street.
2. on 3 loss increase unit move to dozen/column, move step 1 on new high
3. on 3 loss increase unit move to EC on a 3 step marty , move step 1 on new high
I have tried a number of ways to make it work this way. It is not as efficient in terms of the bank roll as the straight forward one, or atleast I was not able to get there. Good luck Marvin! If you figure something out, please let us know as well. Will be very interested to see the approach. 8)
yay! that's really too deep Sam
Marvin
Any suggestions on how to keep from going this deep?
I don't like it either, but what do you do?
Sam
Quote from: TwoCatSam on May 24, 2013, 10:44:14 AM
Any suggestions on how to keep from going this deep?
I don't like it either, but what do you do?
Sam
Sam! Is it 12 straight losses or is it building up slowly. The answer will depend on that. If its not 12 straight losses, then we could try cheating D'alembert by restarting progression on a new high, or on a win, going down by 2 steps instead of 1 step.
Gramps
It is not 12 straight. It goes up and down, but more up than down.
This morning it went 16 and I lost.......
See folks! When I lose I report it. So now I'm down for the week. Next week is a new world.
Sam
:drunk: that's a big cat you got there in your avatar Sam :P
then i realize that this framework is another form of parachuting ... so slow of me ;D
in general parachuting can really do wonders as long as you got a huge bank
the best form of parachuting that i like is the reverse one, where in you start with the single digit.
say you will play Mr J's Catch the 8th train then on every spin you will cover the splits, street, double street, dozens, columns, EC's that will touch with that hot number
Quote from: TwoCatSam on May 24, 2013, 02:08:24 PM
It is not 12 straight. It goes up and down, but more up than down.
Sam
I think I know what's happening. But only you will be able to validate it.
1. Your stop loss is 10. Believe most of the cases you might not be getting to the line bet at all. As you will hit your stop loss before that. May be changing it to 18 might help getting even more winning sessions.
2. Is there way you could cheat alembert in your bot. If it is not straight losses and it is more wins against losses, it might be possible that because the progression is not restarting at a new bank roll high and the deviation is amplified because of he unit size and takes you deeper. What do you think?
Great One
Yes, you are right. Sometimes it does not get all the way to 10 units down. I've seen it reset at -7 so maybe I'll give it a whirl at 20. Makes no real difference to the bot.
Don't know about cheating the D'Alembert.
Sam
GreatGrampa, How many steps should I play in a session to recover the deficit? I have played according to Step 2 (2 4 6), if the balance - 54, I arrived at my Stop / Loss. My goal Win per session is +10
If you lose in Step 1 (EC 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 Dozen Double Street) Go to Step 2 (EC 2 3 4 2 3 4 Dozen ...) do you continue in Step 3, 4 or limit your step? :thumbsup:
Keep a stop loss which is little lower -54 is a little deep for a +10 target. I play only 3-4 steps. After that I accept loss and go for a new one. But as always my knowledge from live wheel. May be someone playing this in RNG can help you if you are playing RNG
Hi GG
According to your experience playing live wheel, what is the maximum number of 3-4-5 steps did you have to go to
recover a deficit in one session. For example, is it two instances, three instances, or more......??
Cheers
Rouletta
Quote from: marvin on May 24, 2013, 08:01:23 AM
now i am trying to do a reverse of this framework if its more profitable simply because the hit rate will increase.
say you will
1. start with a double street.
2. on 3 loss increase unit move to dozen/column, move step 1 on new high
3. on 3 loss increase unit move to EC on a 3 step marty , move step 1 on new high
How did this one hold up marvin?
I have been PMed by a number of people asking for what other variations that we could play this method on especially when I mentioned the part 2 for this method. Instead of PMing individuals, I thought, I will mention a variation of play here.
It is the same 123, It is the same EC, Col and Double streets(lines). I will again explain this in 3 easy steps.
1. Track a spin.
2. Place 3 units on the EC to repeat, 2 units on the column to repeat 1 unit on the line to repeat.
3. On a win, continue playing.
4. On a loss, continue playing, however endeavour to move to the next level of the bet one unit at a time.
5. Continue playing in the same manner. On a win, endeavour to move to the base level of the bet one unit at a time. On a loss, endeavour to move the next level of the bet one unit at a time. On a BR high, reset to the base level. For clarity, the bet levels are 321, 642 and so on.
Lets see an example for the following spins.
[csv=,]
Spins,EC,Col,Line,In,BR,,Comment
14,,,,,,,"Tracking spin. Next is 3u on red/2u on 2nd col/1u on 3rd line"
33,3,2,1,,-6,,Loss. Endeavour to move to the next level 1 unit at a time.
2,4,2,1,8,-5,,
10,3,2,1,6,-5,,
31,3,2,1,12,1,,New BR high. Reset any progressions back.
5,3,2,1,,-5,,Loss. Add one unit.
29,4,2,1,6,-6,,Loss. Add one unit.
6,5,2,1,10,-4,,Win. Reduce one unit
31,4,2,1,8,-3,,Win. Reduce one unit
17,3,2,1,6,-3,,
17,3,2,1,18,9,,New BR high. Reset any progressions back.
26,3,2,1,12,15,,New BR high. Reset any progressions back.
2,3,2,1,12,21,,New BR high. Reset any progressions back.
5,3,2,1,6,21,,
13,3,2,1,,15,,Loss. Add one unit
16,4,2,1,12,20,,New BR high. Reset any progressions back
5,3,2,1,6,20,,
26,3,2,1,6,20,,
22,3,2,1,6,20,,
27,3,2,1,,14,,Loss. Add one unit
12,4,2,1,6,13,,Loss. Add one unit
34,5,2,1,10,15,,Win. Reduce one unit
4,4,2,1,6,14,,Loss. Add one unit
10,5,2,1,22,28,,New BR high. Reset progressions
5,3,2,1,,22,,Loss. Add one unit
19,4,2,1,8,23,,Win. Reduce one unit
6,3,2,1,,17,,Loss. Add one unit
10,4,2,1,8,18,,Win. Reduce one unit
19,3,2,1,6,18,,
25,3,2,1,12,24,,
19,3,2,1,12,30,,New BR high
1,3,2,1,12,36,,
10,3,2,1,6,36,,
[/csv]
Another way of playing the progressions is going up until you hit a new BR high and then resetting the progression. This also works and it entirely depends on the personal preference. So this is one variation on this framework, which is essentially part 2. I will post more variations as and when time permits.