A topic from VLS in 2009 Started by "Simon":
http://vlsroulette.com/index.php?topic=8910.0 (http://vlsroulette.com/index.php?topic=8910.0)
Quite a while back I had a roulette systems exchange website and was contacted by many players and we exchanged many systems that were on the Net at that time, etc. I always kept two emails from back then (11 years ago) that I found quite interesting and compelling. Unfortunately the two emails are all I could get out of this person (my comments to him are in italics.... you'll notice I tried playing the sympathy card but it didn't help.)
Does anyone know who this guy is or was? We all know I'm sure about the columns with 6 and 6, 8 and 4, and 8 and 4 red and black numbers. Is there really any way to exploit this? Is there any difference between the 0 and 00 layouts (or wheels?) other than the 0's?? What is he referring to?? Here are the two emails.......
At 07:22 PM 5/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
Hi Bob. I was just wondering if you could tell me if you bet on the even
factors, the dozens, or the inside.
I bet only columns and, depending on how busy the table is, I change
casinos after an hour or so. After watching me for a while, people keep
trying to engage me in conversation and I just leave to get away from them.
The programmer, that put my method of play through a 1-1/2 million spin
test, quit his programming job and moved permanently to Reno. He plays 6
hours a day, 5 days a week and takes the weekend off. I live 3 hours away
and just bought a new ocean side condo, so I gamble only 3 days a week and
we get together to swap stories.
Being a younger person, he has some wilder stories to tell than I do. I'm
surprised he is keeping our non-disclosure agreement. However he feels the
same as I ... Only scam artists sell an easy way to make a living that
doesn't work!.
If you would concentrate on the 0-00 wheel layout vs. the european layout,
you would have an edge on the casinos. "Nuff Said!"
You have no idea how much time and money I've spent trying to beat Roulette.
Oh yes I do! Been there, done that, got the hat, t-shirt and souvenir
coffee cup. I finally "Cracked" the code in 1993. By that time I was
allready 60 years ols and had wated most of my life following an obsession.
Type at 'Ya later ...
Bob, the old fogey ...
....................................................................
At 08:39 AM 5/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
Which means you just like the end seat too and could be betting the dozens
as well, or there's something else about the columns I didn't mention....
The end chair is crucial to my method. Without it ... I don't play.
I am very protective of this method. I have seen at least one old timer
and one in his late forties on more than one occasion, observing my play
and writing in a tablet. If the secret to my play was obvious, they would
be playing by now and not watching. Although I don't need their free
lunch, some of the invitations, by both men and woman, and the ultimate
stories I get trying to convince me to share my method are most interesting.
If there was a way I could have had my system tested without giving away
its secret to the programmer ... I would have. I won't even teach it too
my Lady friend who accompanies me on most of my trips. She's 28, I'm 65
and I know her interest in me is not my good looks.
Type at 'Ya later ...
Bob, the old fogey ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe someone knows anymore about what happened here.
This was also an interesting reply" I don't know if this helps but on the 00 wheel, columns 1&2 and 1&3 cover large sectors on each side of the wheel. So for example, if there was some kind of dealer signature ie. spinning to alternate sides, you could easily exploit this without clambering allover the table. note each side includes either 0 or 00 in other words the line of symmetry is not thru the zeros."
Also this one "Either way, if the Euro wheel is of perfect design, and the American is flawed, it stands to reason that there must be tangible differences that can be exploited. This is one of the more interesting roulette "debates" that appear here from time to time.
Add: if Bob's method was programmed, then his betting must have been instigated by triggers and followed rules. So it's mechanical, or at least partially mechanical."
Look at the big areas :thumbsup:
My Juiced friend, my first instinct being it's all about betting the inevitable clumping patterns on wheel zones.
If you ran the game in 37-spin chunks, you'll notice most of the time each cycle has its own take for a "loaded" area.
Long-term it's granted to be fully evened-out, but within a numerical cycle you'll likely see the loaded area clearly.
If you notice a short-term imbalance towards the 24 to 4 area, then you might want to back columns 1 & 3.
If you notice a short-term imbalance towards the 16 to 34 area, then you might want to back columns 1 & 2.
"Short term" is up to you. It might be 9, 12, 18, 24 spins...
If someone tells me they have a wheel-based method targeting like this, I'd go for a clumping method. If you can identify the clumping, then you can "dance to the tune of the game". Necessarily collecting your hits in those short-term sprouts, since in the longer term it's only evened-out casino game.
Juiced
I have read this and the link. Since he was on the American wheel, I wonder if it was being spun clockwise and then counterclockwise or one direction only.
Sam
Vic
You have stated a wonderful and very helpful principle in the clustering of 37 spin data. Your practical insight into taking advantage of the short term groupings is fantastic and true. The cycles can be extended more than many might realize. Based on massive live spin analysis, I prefer to use individual inside numbers ( with a trap net support) because that can give higher returns, and maybe more efficient, smarter bets. But that can be discussed later.
To serve an apprenticeship for 25 years is no bad thing if the outcomes can change your world.
It was just fascinating to me that he tested it via simulation.
Which means it must of been mechanical or atleast partly so, his triggers or MM that allowed it to be programmed.
Maybe looking at the 0 wheel we're actually letting the casino off easy, maybe if we put all our effort into the 00 wheel we might be onto somthing else. ???
Sam would it make a difference? if it was simulated using RNG numbers and not real spins i doubt it would matter if it spun in any direction as RNG, as you know, has no direction. But then as they state in the thread why 1.5million and not 1mil or 2mil? So maybe it was real spins and therefore direction matters.
I guess there is just too much missing info. :-\
He could be using the red/black randomness to select columns 1 & 2 for black, and columns 1 & 3 for red. He might be following the trends in the even chance. Now if you combine that with hot & cold numbers then (6, 15, 24, & 33) are significant for black, while (5, 14, 23, & 32) are significant for red. I would also always watch the trends for patterns, sleepers, singles etc..., and dominance in the columns. Who knows. Perhaps he's using all the clues.
You now can use the sleeping column to identify a weakness in the red or black too. Imagine if 8 blacks or 8 reds were sleeping or in some kind of a sequence.
Good thing I'm really good at this. Let the gold rush begin.
juice91, I could easily program what I just suggested. I'm ready to take this to the casino without testing it.
Okay gizmotron.
Quote from: XXVV on January 09, 2013, 08:05:14 PM
Vic
You have stated a wonderful and very helpful principle in the clustering of 37 spin data.
Whatever bet you're playing you can help yourself by taking the wheel's current state in consideration, within the current cycle..
The most obvious corollary:
- Do not bet any zone which doesn't have hits. Gaps of two or more contiguous numbers without hits are immediately discarded.
- Bet within zones and
neighbors of loaded areas. Read that again, WITHIN the boundaries of spun zones and neighbors of
loaded areas.
You basically want to filter out the dry's and
focus on where the gold is right now. Granted, it'll even-out towards no recognizable loaded area in "gazillion" spins, but next cycle you start afresh, with a sharp eye to the forming zones again, trying to tap where the loaded section forms. Analyzing an exploiting the cycle is the player's suitable way to exploit these short imbalances. The casinos have all the time in the world for it to even-out, we must stay always on the edge of the numerical stream, only concerning ourselves with the recent events, with what's happening... what will happen in the largest numerical samples we all know for sure.
It isn't wrong to remember "anything will happen".
Sure, you'll find cycles with numbers spread-out tending to being even, but if you take into account how the short-term works, clumps are inevitable. We have around 24 spun numbers in a cycle as a general rule, which means there are likely to be some empty areas as a general rule too.
As to identifying and attacking where the loaded zones are forming... well: A zone of 5 numbers spun is first a zone of 4, or a zone of 3 with a number gap.
A zone of 6 numbers is first a zone of 5, or a zone of 4 with a number gap.
Larger zones form from smaller areas. They are distinguishable.
I once talked about the difference between TRIGGERS and FILTERS.
Triggers add numbers to the pool. Filters refine those numbers.
In this case of wheel targeting, filters can be applied to it such as the simple one of splitting the wheel in two; DYNAMICALLY* identifying which half has the most numbers spun on it currently (simple count). Then you filter-out the numbers activated by triggers in the dryer half and focus on the enabled ones from the loaded half.
*: By dynamically I mean re-counting with each and every single spin.
Throughout the 37-spin numerical cycle you'll see how this dynamic half changes.
On the American wheel you use 19 numbers as a even half.
On the European wheel, you use 18 numbers and deal with the uneven half problem by counting ONLY within areas of 18 numbers and selecting the one which has the most numbers on it. The other half immediately becomes the 19-number opposite one.
It might be the short side of uneven, but it's better to use 18 than giving yourself the advantage of the 19er. You get a better picture of the stronger area this way :)
Juiced
I was speaking of when he sat at the end of the table and won real money. And then--yes--it makes a whale of difference how the wheel is being spun. I've see a lot of American 00 wheels that were spun one direction only.
Sam
He said he found the "solution" in 1993. Do we think there was 1.5 million spins worth if live data available?
Sam I have never studied real wheels to take any note of how it made a difference I've always been an RNG guy.
Did a short test flatbetting col 1 & 3, wasn't very successful. A trigger is needed for this to work
Just look at this. There is a domination of columns 1 and 2, while at the same time there is a domination of the black. And if you check the numbers hit you can quickly see that the (6, 15, 24, 33) black numbers in column 3 only hit once. This is obviously a great example of one set reinforcing confirmation in the other.
| A B C | 1 2 3 | | B R | L H | O E | -- ## -- Line
|---------------------------------------| - 00 -- 1
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 13 -- 2
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 8 -- 3
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 6 -- 4
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 2 -- 5
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 1 -- 6
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 13 -- 7
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 11 -- 8
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 22 -- 9
|---------------------------------------| - 00 -- 10
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 27 -- 11
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 20 -- 12
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 10 -- 13
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 8 -- 14
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 22 -- 15
|---------------------------------------| - 0 -- 16
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 13 -- 17
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 7 -- 18
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 2 -- 19
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 35 -- 20
1 X
2 XX
3
4
5
6 X
7 X
8 XX
9
10 X
11 X
12
13 XXX
14
15
16
17
18
19
20 X
21
22 XX
23
24
25
26
27 X
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35 X
36
0 X
00 XX
Quote from: Gizmotron on January 09, 2013, 10:30:27 PM
Just look at this. There is a domination of columns 1 and 2, while at the same time there is a domination of the black. And if you check the numbers hit you can quickly see that the (6, 15, 24, 33) black numbers in column 3 only hit once. This is obviously a great example of one set reinforcing confirmation in the other.
| A B C | 1 2 3 | | B R | L H | O E | -- ## -- Line
|---------------------------------------| - 00 -- 1
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 13 -- 2
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 8 -- 3
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 6 -- 4
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 2 -- 5
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 1 -- 6
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 13 -- 7
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 11 -- 8
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 22 -- 9
|---------------------------------------| - 00 -- 10
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 27 -- 11
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 20 -- 12
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 10 -- 13
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 8 -- 14
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 22 -- 15
|---------------------------------------| - 0 -- 16
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 13 -- 17
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 7 -- 18
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 2 -- 19
| X | X | | X | X | X | -- 35 -- 20
1 X
2 XX
3
4
5
6 X
7 X
8 XX
9
10 X
11 X
12
13 XXX
14
15
16
17
18
19
20 X
21
22 XX
23
24
25
26
27 X
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35 X
36
0 X
00 XX
So the way i understand YOU play, you would now bet all black numbers in col 1&2, for greater profits?
Quote from: Juiced91 on January 10, 2013, 07:51:22 AM
So the way i understand YOU play, you would now bet all black numbers in col 1&2, for greater profits?
I would use the evidence in the streak of blacks to go ahead and make the bet selection on columns 1 & 2. It occurred to me that a sleeping column three also suggests a strong likelihood that black was heavily overweight. You will notice that the 4 black numbers in column three only hit once.
As far as a collision bet goes. In this case it is 14 numbers. I would also bet them.
Coming out of this is Clumping Theory.
I want to thank Vic for drawing our attention to this. The discussion on the development of the clumping and then the identification of the target clump ( lets call it cluster it's a bit prettier) through triggers and then filters is a fantastic zone of interest for me. Then combining that work with the cycles of 37 spins,or more or less, on a spin by spin review, reveals treasure I am certain.
Outstanding.
You want to thank Vic for it? Good think I started the topic, posted the graphs and a story of a possible winner. Thanks Vic.
Quote from: Juiced91 on January 11, 2013, 03:29:03 AMGood thing I started the topic, posted the graphs and a story of a possible winner.
Thanks Juiced :thumbsup: :)
We're a TEAM in here :nod:
Quote from: XXVV on January 10, 2013, 11:49:50 PMComing out of this is Clumping Theory.
The solution to the short-term, long-term dichotomy is simple and well known:
- The short-term is all about imbalance.
- The long-term is all about balance.
Take for instance the splitting in 37-spin cycles. There will be around 24 numbers in most samples, there will be gaps with unhit numbers on the wheel unique to each cycle... but when you superpose all cycles, you get an evened-out picture of a wheel with no discernible pattern. All samples of 1,000,000 spins should be somewhat the same. There shall not be an skewed gap in such an amount of sets.
The skewed 37-spin sample is what the player plays.
The evened-out overall sample is what the casino plays.
The punter plays in the short term. Hence it's the short term which he has to beat. The smart punter catches the events unfolding
within a time-frame he can cope with realistically, within the boundaries of his session bankroll.
The probability of beating the "long term for the casino" is: 0.
But on the other hand, there
is a possibility of beating the short term imbalances, riding them as they unfold.
Then it comes the paradox-like scenario:
beating the short terms we would be beating the long term.
The sum of enough winning trams necessarily means a winning overall balance.This looks like a paradox on its own, but it isn't.
The reason is simple, because
no matter how many spins we play in our lifetime it is still "short term"; everything we win in life is scheduled to "even-out in the long term". But there's a chance we won't be there as meek lambs. Imagine you catch -say- a 30 series of red with a positive progression. You are "scheduled" to give it all back "in the future": in fact, by means of the game remaining faithfully even in the long term, a series of 30 blacks is scheduled to appear, which should be certain to take it away... if you play like a robot for the rest of your whole life backing RED.
In real-life we don't act that way. In fact, the smart bettor wise enough to catch such a long series of Red as it unfolded would also catch the series of 30 Blacks as it unfolds too. Paradox or not, mind you!.
Vic, Just wanted to be a nuisance! It looks like the only way to do well in this game is to follow what is happening as the game unfolds. Something I haven't paid much attention to. Although it seems we lost track of the initial post, would this all be programmable to a certain degree?
QuoteIt looks like the only way to do well in this game is to follow what is happening as the game unfolds. Something I haven't paid much attention to
Something MOST haven't paid much attention too, I'm convinced it's the only way forward too.
Quotewould this all be programmable to a certain degree
Probably BUT it wouldn't work programmed as you should/would be using too many different bet sizes at different points of the game, you, that's YOU not a bot, need to be thinking while you play, free spinning past bad clumps, deciding when it looks good to dive in etc etc etc
Quote from: Superman on January 11, 2013, 08:37:17 AM
Probably BUT it wouldn't work programmed as you should/would be using too many different bet sizes at different points of the game, you, that's YOU not a bot, need to be thinking while you play, free spinning past bad clumps, deciding when it looks good to dive in etc etc etc
But that's then what im saying. A method was apparently found where it could be PROGRAMMED for a million+ spins. So did he program it to foolow the game or work of triggers. that's the question ???
Quote from: Juiced91 on January 11, 2013, 10:07:11 AM
But that's then what im saying. A method was apparently found where it could be PROGRAMMED for a million+ spins. So did he program it to foolow the game or work of triggers. that's the question ???
I guess you need to see a common roadmap of how to do this. It's a program. It's best to seek a well defined result. I actually started mapping this thing out yesterday. My conclusion was to have the software look for sleeping columns in col2 & col3 and to correlate them, when found, with dominance or pure streaks in the respective reds or respective blacks. Then I would have a chart of spins that include correlation in the form of yes or no to the combination situations. That's exactly what I would be looking for at this point. The program could tell me how often the two conditions combine. This is because it might be an interesting result. The percentage for yes might turn out to be higher than the expected value.
OK, I did some sim work on this. It probably correlates along the same conditions for other trend based bet selections. The same type of three states work about the same for these combinations. So there is no secret to be discovered, just because there are 8/4 differences for red or black in column 2 & 3 of the table layout.
It is my belief that the programmer never moved to Reno or quit his job.
@Clumping Theory , ie sub set of Cluster Theory
It is fascinating and very rewarding that some excellent principles have arisen from this thread, and yes I really should thank Juiced91 as well as Vic.
The desire to make a program for long term overview analysis or predictive value in roulette is a red herring here and Gizmo is probably right to suggest the programmer never quit his day job. What is needed is a signal to note temporary imbalances in the very short term beyond a certain level to trigger action. These can be dozens, columns, EC outcomes and wheel and table outcomes.
Again and again we see in roulette the need to deal with the short cycles and temporary skews that can offer easy access and short term profit. Note the recent mention of Holloway playing all three EC positions when triggered.
My thesis is that short cycle gains can be strung together, like pearls on a thread, so as to link islets of opportunity into a consistent winning strategy. There may be clusters of player action, then significant pauses, just as with cycles of outcome data.
Vic has provided us with so many leads here.
The dominant hemisphere and the emergence within that of a seed clumping effect leading to a larger and larger formation as a small cluster, with incremental growth accessed for us see by use of triggers and filters.
Now the short term imbalance can be measured and can be visualised through a program set to monitor the accretion (like grains of sand becoming attached to an underwater magnet) spin by spin. If you can imagine this, and in colour ( for coding), then you can perhaps build a model and test these short cycles within larger cycles, spiraling perhaps in cycles of 37 or less or more.
Given that you can model this, and test repeatedly through live result play data, initially in small samples, then later expanding, you can observe the 'clumping' characteristics, and possibly develop a suitable bet to take advantage of this ongoing phenomenon.
This could be a prototype for formation of a new bet type; one that is interactive and responsive to short cycles, and which consists of a series of short series coups linked together in the formation and eventual decay of a cluster of action energy.
My suggestion would be for the bet overview to consist of three coups with the opportunity to expand and extend if the cluster formation warranted the attention.
Observation is now required on samples using a trial and error methodology.
Will report soon. XXVV
Cluster is there, has always been, and will be, that's a good way to use in gaming.
Quote from: XXVV on January 14, 2013, 05:18:03 PM
@Clumping Theory , ie sub set of Cluster Theory
One thing is to observe
what is formed every 37-spin clusters (overall effect for the cycle), and another thing to study
how they clump (pre-effect -but not cause!, It's the study of how the effect unfolds, the study of how a moving target starts to "move" and its properties such as direction, signal strength, etc. i.e. the study of the very moving condition(s)).
I'd say correlating it to the wheel as a physical object should be the very first choice to learn it.
More "ethereal" scenarios can be derived; but at first, having a physical object can help on comprehending it. i.e. a loaded area on the wheel is clearly related to the side where the ball strikes the most for current cycle, hence it's very easy to grasp.
Clumping Theory deserves its own thread :applause: