I played the airball roulette made by IGT a lot 2 years ago. I never
felt quite right about it. The ball was shot onto the track by air and
the computer could alter the speed of the wheel. One thing that
bothered me was on wins over $1200 it was paid like a slot machine.
A slot attendant gave you IRS paperwork and she paid in cash. Why
was this looked at as a slot if it was random?
Last month I noticed the airball setup was gone from a local casino.
I found the shift manager and asked him why. Keep in mind this is
the shift manager, the guy in the $2000 suit who runs the whole
casino during his shift. He has the final say in everything, this isn't
some flunky floor person I talked to.
He said two guys from Chicago had beaten the airball machine out
of a few hundred thousand dollars a few months before. Apparently
airball isn't random at all, its run by an algorhythm and these guys
had cracked it. No wonder I never felt quite right about it, it was rigged
just like a slot machine is rigged. Consequently they got rid of the
airball as did several local casinos. The ones that kept it lowered the
time to make a bet down to 15 seconds which defeats anybody trying
to beat the program.
So beware of airball roulette, the outcomes are not random, they are
preprogrammed to pay out like a slot machine, which means if you play
your system on them, you aren't getting fair results.
I used to think the 'alfastreet' machines were rigged! But I am not so sure about that anymore. The wheel design was slightly different and it was probably just displaying unique characteristics specific to that particular type of wheel.
My gut tells me they are above board where I play at least and I am more than happy to play them.
The manager from my local Genting casino does play a bit of roulette himself at the Gala and I have seen him play the airball several times. So I am assuming that he would not play something like that if he had an inkling there was something dodgy about them.
Thanks for the heads up Spike.
These happenings would make for good movies : )
A player I know was really working air ball. He picked up on air pressure changes. Then after his account reached a very high amount of units won, albeit proportionality with .10 units, the air pressure applied completely changed.
ps
Floor people are not by definition flunky. Don't judge a book by its cover, you never know their story. They might have more valuable information then the casino manager.......
Quote from: Bally6354 on December 13, 2012, 10:56:37 PM
My gut tells me they are above board where I play at least and I am more than happy to play them.
You wouldn't know unless you had a system that won
more than it lost. Because you don't, you have no way
of testing the outcomes. It would have to be substantially
over 50% for you to tell if it was cheating you or not.
Quote from: spike on December 13, 2012, 11:09:14 PM
You wouldn't know unless you had a system that won
more than it lost. Because you don't,
That's probably why I thought the 'alfastreet' used to cheat and is why 100's of players up and down the UK think the F.O.B.T's are fixed.
Those were the days my friend. ;)
Unless you can consistently win more than you lose,
there is no way to test a casino game. I suppose you
could sit there and record thousands of spins, but that
still might not prove anything.
spike!
Did you consider the shift manager was telling you a load of porkies about the 'algorhythms' and what he didn't tell you was that the piece of crapola was heavily biased. (It does happen and you could be talking about SD of +10) Now that wouldn't take long to rack up a few dollars.
Maybe the suit doesn't want to be putting fancy ideas into players heads about how you might actually find an edge. The 'algorhythm' story was a nice touch!
just saying......
Quote from: Bally6354 on December 14, 2012, 12:01:18 AM
Did you consider the shift manager was telling you a load of porkies
I heard the story from probably 6 other people
before I found the shift manager. But you're right,
it's a conspiracy, that's why most of the other local
casinos got rid of the IGT airball's. They're just
trying to fool everybody.
I have played upon alfastreet airball for more than 2000 hours, so far. I do not feel it to be rigged. Actually, when we play RNG or these airballs and lose badly we think that it was rigged while when we lose the same on real dealer we blame our luck.
We've recently gotten the Interblock Organic "AirBall" roulette machines installed in the local Indian casinos.
They appear to be exactly like the ones I've played in Deadwood, SD although newer, of course.
So far I've just dabbled on it as I don't play roulette as the serious casino play so I was only running a basic opposites play on the EC of the moment. Picked up a few dollars while testing but the machines seem to run just fine.
I would tend to think the casino management has no real reason to "program" the wheel to cheat as legitimate roulette wheels have been beating the players for a few hundred years now.
People who claim the "airball" machines cheat have usually lost on them, so those comments are generally tainted.
While I was there for a short time, I did see a guy parlay a nice $25 wager into $400 and walk away with it. I don't believe you'll convince him that the machine is cheating. :applause:
AD
Quote from: ADulay on December 14, 2012, 11:35:07 PM
I would tend to think the casino management has no real reason to "program" the wheel to cheat
Its not cheating anymore than a slot machine cheats.
Having it run on an algorhythm is not cheating, its
perfectly legal. Its just not the same a a random wheel.
And nowhere do they claim its the same as a random
wheel. Ask anybody in that casino and they won't know.
Call the manufacturer (like I have) and they won't talk
to you because you aren't their customer, the casino
is. They'll refer you to the casino, which knows nothing.
But it doesn't matter. If you don't have a winning system,
play the thing, you won't be able to tell the difference.
It will gladly take your money just as fast as a real wheel
does.
Quote from: spike on December 14, 2012, 11:46:54 PM
Its not cheating anymore than a slot machine cheats.
Uh, apples and oranges. Slot machines are strictly electronic displays that "do something" to amuse the player. AirBall is a real wheel, real rotation, hard physical components and electronics to replace the croupier and dispense with the tedius (and unsanitary) methods of payments.
Quote from: spike on December 14, 2012, 11:46:54 PM
Having it run on an algorhythm is not cheating, its
perfectly legal. Its just not the same a a random wheel.
It's not running on an algorithm. It's most probably running at randomly selected wheel speeds and ball speeds. You wouldn't want it to run the same wheel and ball speed with each spin, would you?
Quote from: spike on December 14, 2012, 11:46:54 PM
Call the manufacturer (like I have) and they won't talk
to you because you aren't their customer, the casino
is. They'll refer you to the casino, which knows nothing.
Yep, call the manufacturer and ask them for the details of their copyrighted (and secure) product. How about calling Raytheon and asking them about how their counter-mortar radar works in a secured environment. Duh.
Quote from: spike on December 14, 2012, 11:46:54 PM
But it doesn't matter. If you don't have a winning system,
play the thing, you won't be able to tell the difference.
It will gladly take your money just as fast as a real wheel
does.
If it takes my money "just as fast" as a real wheel, then I'd say it's a real wheel!
Look, I'm not going to argue with you on this. You're set in your ways so I'll let you rant on about how rigged everything is in the casino. Me? I'll just take the money and continue to be cheated every day. The losers on the baccrarat forums have basically the same mantra of "being cheated" by somebody, especially when they lose.
This is not rocket science. Play the game, take your money and deal with the losses when they show up.
If you don't like AirBall, don't play it.
If you don't like RNG, don't play it. (I don't)
If you don't like orange felt tables, don't play on them.
See? It's very simple.
AD
I was on IGT Roulette Evolution wheel yesterday...virtually no play...couple people playing $5 a spin...gal comes up starts playing the greens $40 a spin (they are cold at the time...maybe a single 0 hit in the last 100 spins)...4 maybe 5 spins in she wins.
Don't know if that means anything at all in this whole conversation...but they always seemed fair to me.
The ticket like the slot machine sort of had me thinking at first too but the whole point is to do away with payroll and without automating the money process somebody would have to cash you in and out. I'm sure there's alot more to all of this...just a quickie observation.
Quote from: ADulay on December 15, 2012, 02:34:33 AM
It's not running on an algorithm.
Uh, sure it is. An algorithm is a program, the same thing that
runs a slot machine. that's why airball pays off jackpots just
like a slot, with an IRS form and a hand pay. it's a slot machine
shaped like a roulette game. that's how the Chicago guys beat
it, they figured out the program and what section the ball was
going to land in next. They kept their win under $1200 and stayed
away from the IRS forms and hand pays. This came as a complete
surprise to the casino, they were assured it was a safe game. Its
not..
Spike,
You talk a bit bitter but most of the times you speak of sense. Are you sure that airball roulette is always rigged?
Quote from: KingsRoulette on December 15, 2012, 04:14:18 AM
Spike,
You talk a bit bitter but most of the times you speak of sense. Are you sure that airball roulette is always rigged?
Its not rigged anymore than the slots are rigged. That is, to pay
off at a certain percentage for the casino. Which means you can't
get ahead and stay ahead on it.
U mean to say, it can see our bets and produce the adverse.
Quote from: KingsRoulette on December 15, 2012, 04:22:44 AM
U mean to say, it can see our bets and produce the adverse.
Not at all. Its programmed to keep a certain percentage of
the money, just like a slot does. It works just like a slot
does. You can win but in the end it will keep about 7% of
your money.
How can it decide "in the end"? How will it know I am going to quit now? Do you mean to say that it averages out winnings for all the players?
Quote from: KingsRoulette on December 15, 2012, 05:35:59 AM
How can it decide "in the end"? How will it know I am going to quit now? Do you mean to say that it averages out winnings for all the players?
All it has to do is hit a zero at different times so it averages
out to the machine keeping the house percentage. Not too
complicated. Nowhere does it say its the same as regular
roulette, you won't get the casino or the manufacturer to
talk about it. Again, to review: If you have to fill out an IRS form
on anything over a $1200 win, its classified as a slot machine
and works like one.
But you could say that a regular roulette table is "programmed" to take 2.7% of your money, what's the difference? It may be easier to rig an electronic game like slots, but it doesn't need to be rigged in order to have a negative expectation because the HA is determined by the payouts, just like roulette.
Quote from: Bayes on December 15, 2012, 09:39:34 AM
But you could say that a regular roulette table is "programmed" to take 2.7% of your money, what's the difference? It may be easier to rig an electronic game like slots, but it doesn't need to be rigged in order to have a negative expectation
Ever notice airball roulette has much different rules than
regular roulette? The minimum amount to bet is always
very low, sometimes as low as 50 cents or a dollar. And
you can bet that minimum anywhere on the board, on
the inside or the outside. You can't do that in regular roulette,
you can't bet 50 cents on red and cover half the numbers.
They have a $5 minimum, you can bet 50 cents on the inside
numbers for a total of $5, or bet $5 on the outside, like red
and black.
Because airball is set up like a slot, it takes a pre-set percentage
of whatever is bet as a profit. No waiting for the house edge
to manifest itself like in regular roulette. No weeks or months when
roulette is in a slump and not making money because of lucky
big customer wins. Airball is money in the bank, just like a slot. The
slots never suffer from variance, they only suffer when people aren't
feeding them.
I have more then 80000 spins of my real play on almost every day basis saved in my computer.
Alfastreet.It is controled by compact HD and the numbers coming out are predtermined,but never.
against player/s.....Next time you play have a close look when the ball lands in the pocket.
The bottom of the pocket is askew,and by the law of physics it should land on the askew part of pocket,
but it doesn't until the voice pronounces number hit,then it slowly goes back in the machine.
The magnet keeps it in the middle of the pocket.
Hopping day will come when they reload the same compact HD that was already used.
Remember about 15 years back when video cassetes were in those machines and how I
won on greyhounds on repeated cassete.
Quote from: FLAT_IN_O on December 15, 2012, 07:49:09 PM
.Next time you play have a close look when the ball lands in the pocket.
The bottom of the pocket is askew,and by the law of physics it should land on the askew part of pocket,
but it doesn't
Others have noticed this and reported it on other
forums. The ball sometimes sits towards the front of the
pocket and doesn't go to the back of the pocket until
later. Like a magnet or something (air?) is holding it
there.
if it can be done on airball can it be done on the live spin wheel with the person spinning the wheel?
I am playing airball just now and this thread concerns me a bit...
Quote from: subby on December 15, 2012, 08:33:28 PM
if it can be done on airball can it be done on the live spin wheel with the person spinning the wheel?
Precision spinning by a real dealer is an urban legend.
People always know dealers who say they can do it,
or know somebody who knows somebody who can do
it. But its never been demonstrated or proven. This
would be the most dangerous person in the casino. He
could employ his friends and relatives to make the bets
and they would clean up. Its an urban legend, its not
possible.
Don't worry about the airball if you don't have a method
that wins more than 50% of the time. what's the difference,
losing there or on a real wheel. Losing is losing.
Quote from: subby on December 15, 2012, 08:33:28 PM
if it can be done on airball can it be done on the live spin wheel with the person spinning the wheel?
I am playing airball just now and this thread concerns me a bit...
Subby how many games of PB have you played on Airball. And what is the breakdown. I've never fully trusted airball myself. But its better than an RNG. And the results have no real difference for me compared to live wheels.
The thing that tells me if something isn't right is my strikerate. And you have to consider this. If they could make these things cheat. Who will they cheat against? The guy laying 50 quid on a straight. Or the guy laying 5 quid on an even chance. This makes the argument for H.A.R for me, get in there and play the games and come out.
90%+ of speramus spins are airball table on paddypower. I play it as I need the 50p option for insurance. Sports roulette isn't on early in the morning when I play so I use airball at that time. Sports table is the only other table with 50p bets allowed. The other tables are £1 minimum
Quote from: subby on December 16, 2012, 12:15:41 AM
90%+ of speramus spins are airball table on paddypower. I play it as I need the 50p option for insurance. Sports roulette isn't on early in the morning when I play so I use airball at that time. Sports table is the only other table with 50p bets allowed. The other tables are £1 minimum
Mmmm that's interesting Subby. Your strikerate has been pretty good. But could it be better if more live games were played? I am ONLY playing the sports table at the moment. And I have won 16 straight games on there playing just HIGH LOW.
I've moved to playing sports roulette when I can, instead of airball, as of 15th Dec.
I've put all Airball play on hold and just play B+M Live Dealer.
Quote from: subby on December 17, 2012, 03:05:47 PM
I've moved to playing sports roulette when I can, instead of airball, as of 15th Dec.
Yes that's a good move. Then when you do lose you know its random and nothing else. I've won 17 straight games on the sports roulette wheel. Yesterday played two games on the airball.
Because like you said, the sports roulette isn't on early. But they both won. And one game on the latvian feed for 1 pound min stakes.
Do some of you realy understand "slot" , "rigged" and the expected value? I doubt it. The airball has a random outcome at about 2.7% of a fair odds, as any roulette. Every fair "wheel" RNG, air pressure or old fashion casino roulette is "slot" or not "slot" at the same degree. I hope the readers of the forum knows the difference between "information" and "knowledge". You have the right to talk about things you realy do not know, the reader should of cource have a critical mind. A particular device can be rigged in a fraudent casino, but it has notning to do with what kind of device used, as long it produce the odds, and randomness it expected to do.
If I had the choice of RNG or airball then it would be airball for sure but I've read a few things online that made me question airball.
Some airball videos I've seen, ok perhaps from a supposed "less reputable" casino, have looked odd in defying the laws of physics and bouncing from one number slot into another number slot, after it appeared to come to rest int he first slot...only for it to "jump" out and end in another one.
Sports roulette (due to 50p option) and, when BR allows, min £1 table bet will be the main tables I'll play now and only play airball as a last resort.
Good for you Subby.......i agree.
Quote from: Ralph on December 17, 2012, 03:24:02 PM
The airball has a random outcome at about 2.7% of a fair odds, as any roulette.
You can't possibly know that because you haven't recorded the
huge number of spins needed to make that determination. It
could be running on an program of 5% and you wouldn't be able
to tell the difference.
Quote from: spike on December 17, 2012, 07:29:46 PM
You can't possibly know that because you haven't recorded the
huge number of spins needed to make that determination. It
could be running on an program of 5% and you wouldn't be able
to tell the difference.
As I state it, I can know, a FAIR airball is as fair as a fair traditional wheel, an unfair of both are both rigged. The reason you do not know if it is rigged, is not a proof rather ignorance. A difference which make the HE double you should be able to test, not in one night, but it can be tested.
Quote from: Ralph on December 17, 2012, 08:13:51 PM
not in one night, but it can be tested.
You first...
Quote from: KingsRoulette on December 15, 2012, 04:22:44 AM
U mean to say, it can see our bets and produce the adverse.
--
This I know for sure it doesn't.
Quote from: subby on December 15, 2012, 08:33:28 PM
if it can be done on airball can it be done on the live spin wheel with the person spinning the wheel?
Ofcourse it can.I see many such/private smaller casinos with live dealer/around EU,but as I have a device
which shows me things as soon as I come near any table wheel,could tell with 100% certainity what's going
on there.
Just watched the Cammegh Roulette wheel 360S in play on there web site. .is it legal ? I wonder how many of these are at Crown casino in Melbourne ?
the air roulette machines in casinos should not be rigged but i think they are i have a method of play that never loses on paper but breaks down when i play for real can we sue the casinos
Quote from: seaview on September 02, 2015, 10:31:59 AM
the air roulette machines in casinos should not be rigged but i think they are i have a method of play that never loses on paper but breaks down when i play for real can we sue the casinos
The short answer? No.
But if you can post up some of your losing "live" play records I"m sure someone will step in with the appropriate corrections.
AD
As a fan of Roulette and living in area with no live tables. I play Roulette most months at least once a week. My work schedule doesn't allow more. Fortunately I have done well
and learned a lot. My best games start with $40.00 and cash out around $400.00 . My worst games I lose the $40.00 in a few turns. The single best way for me to win is play
when the wheel is good and sit out when it's not. What makes a good wheel is simple watch the speed. Fast wheels and the ball bounces lucky to win usually lose too much.
Now on a slow wheel I can hit my target in 1/2 hour and cash out decide to play later or go home. My success is close to 75%. As for cash out Tickets I like those best. No wait and
I have my money. Most games I play until I start losing then cash out. I might add another twenty and try for a quick $100.00 and often add even more to my wins. I have my game to play
my brother plays a very different game on our best days we both walk with money. Believe it or not the days I do lose I sit and watch for at least an hour, machine and players allowing.
(not possible on say a Friday night). One thing I truly believe is there is a pay out mode and a take out mode. In take out mode I have covered 37 of 38 numbers and the only number
without money hits. Other times I cover 1/2 and hit almost every time. So do I think it's rigged Not really. As long as I keep winning can't believe it is. Every casino is different my favorite
won't let me cash out a ticket over $500.00 or two tickets combines for over $500.00 other places allow more. That is using a Atm style anything over that must be taken to the cashiers.
I watch my winnings and cash out before that add money and keep playing. Over all my best advice is pay attention to wheel speed slow wheels play neighbors and back to backs. One last
thing at my local casino wheel speed changes often . A slow wheel for a half hour is average for a full hour a treat.Fast wheels seem to act the same. Also always remember there is a reason we call
it gambling and not banking.