Quote from: Ralph on January 30, 2013, 05:07:58 AM

So it would be possible to send a string of numbers and assume the player will not change the play in the near future spins.

True, but they would just be guessing if they did that, so why bother?

Random control isn't a 'carnival trick'. 

Some get paranoiac when the RFH comes. If we search the web, we see  many of the martingaler go into problem while wait for 10 or more colors in a row and go bust. They are very sure it is not fair.

4 seven, when we will have 7 eleven?

Quote from: spike on January 30, 2013, 09:53:28 PM
Hmm, they say. What if we run an algorithm (program) that makes
numbers sleep on purpose, most of the time. And we switch it
around a lot. Not specifically sleep due to what numbers are bet,
but sleep in general, far more often than a real wheel.

Because a real wheel does have times when large portions of numbers
sleep, but it also has long periods where nothing sleeps for long.
If you could manipulate that on an RNG wheel, you could easily double
or triple your edge, depending on how greedy you were. And it would be
very hard to get caught because in the end it would fit the math.

But it would be impossible to make every bet on the table sleep longer than average. Players bet all over the table, so how would you ensure that they all run into long sleepers? If you wanted to fix say street 1 so that it continuously slept longer than average, that must mean that other streets were more active than average - the more streets you tried to "fix" into sleepers the more active the remaining streets would have to be. Carry the logic through and you'll see it's impossible, and that's only the streets. It gets worse because not all bets are mutually exclusive, so to make some parts of the wheel sleep would involve making other parts more active and there's just no way to avoid it.

The very nature of roulette would suggest nobody really needs to tamper with the variance.

The average 25/37 numbers ensures a dozen sleeps for 37 spins anyhow most of the time. So actually seeing dozen 2 sleep for 25 spins like I did last night should not really surprise me. It's just that they are neatly packaged in that middle section of the layout which catches my attention.

Quote from: Bayes on January 30, 2013, 11:14:32 PM
But it would be impossible to make every bet on the table sleep longer than average.

You don't need to. Making some part of the table
sleep longer than normal most of the time is very
different than real random, which has periods when
nothing sleeps for long all the time.

We all know online casinos are doing something. When
they first put the RNG virtual roulette setups in Vegas,
years ago, the old time roulette players very soon declared
them worthless. The casinos laughed at them, saying
nobody can tell the difference. But the guys who'd been
playing for decades could. The outcomes weren't 'right',
they were skewed somehow. They avoided them like the
plague and still do to this day.

If you have a way of playing, and you've been doing it for
a long long time, and it doesn't work the same on an RNG,
what should that tell you. What are they making the RNG
do that a real wheel doesn't do. People want so badly
to believe they can play safely from the security of their
homes, they'll kid themselves all day long that RNG wheels
are as safe as their local casino.

"People want so badly
to believe they can play safely from the security of their
homes, they'll kid themselves all day long that RNG wheels
are as safe as their local casino."


YES!!  A very good point. 

Assuming just for a moment BV's randomness control is honest (Ralph is cleaning them out very successfully!!), it sure raises issues about the Playtechs et alia who offer no such controls -- apart from reassuring motherhood statements that few experienced players believe.

In fact, I clearly recall a former casino programmer (or so he said) who revealed the shonky nature of RNGs in a forum post.  Might have been at RF...  Was a while ago...

Quote from: esoito on January 31, 2013, 12:04:03 AM

Assuming just for a moment BV's randomness control is honest, it sure raises issues about the Playtechs et alia who offer no such controls --

Yeah, those all important controls. I have to go back
to the example of cigarettes. The industry knew people
were nervous about their product making people sick,
so they had actual real doctors lie and say cigarettes
did not cause health problems. The industry identified
a problem and took steps to solve it. It got so out of
hand that congress outlawed the practice eventually.

A casino knows players are worried they're being cheated.
So they cook up a 'random control' and the players are
happy as hell. The casino is delighted, as they use another
method entirely to pick the players pocket.

Magicians do it all the time. Have all your attention directed
to one area, while they do their trick when you're distracted.

It's all sheer speculation, and this just goes to show that it's not in the casino's interest to create biased outcomes:

<blockquote>

QuoteThis was really brought home in the last year by a few guys who beat
the program of the airball machine made by IGT, Roulette Evolution. It
happened in Michigan City, IN, at Blue Chip casino. After studying the
numbers for months, having somebody record them 24/7 for god knows
how long, over two weekends they took the casino for over $250,000.
They knew what section was coming next and bet it heavily. I used to
play that machine but quit in 2010 because it just wasn't right, it didn't
feel right.

</blockquote>
Outcomes which are biased can be exploited, random outcomes can't. But let's suppose you're right and RNG results really are "different" somehow from those on a real wheel, it follows that a regular player of RNG could learn those idiosyncrasies and do no worse playing RNG. In fact, someone who is used to playing ONLY RNG might find real wheels to be "not random". And it isn't the case that if they were fixing the results in the short term the long-term math would be the same; if outcomes are continually biased in the short term it would show up in the long term stats, and to claim otherwise is like saying that hit & run works because you only play in the short term - the fallacy being that lots of short terms don't add up to one long term.

Quote from: esoito on January 31, 2013, 12:04:03 AM
"People want so badly
to believe they can play safely from the security of their
homes, they'll kid themselves all day long that RNG wheels
are as safe as their local casino."


YES!!  A very good point. 

Assuming just for a moment BV's randomness control is honest (Ralph is cleaning them out very successfully!!), it sure raises issues about the Playtechs et alia who offer no such controls -- apart from reassuring motherhood statements that few experienced players believe.

In fact, I clearly recall a former casino programmer (or so he said) who revealed the shonky nature of RNGs in a forum post.  Might have been at RF...  Was a while ago...

You can play safely at online live wheels on most sites. RNGS thrive because they satisfy the inherent lack of patience found in most humans.

Everybody virtually is in a RUSH to win. That makes it easy for dishonest sites to take advantage. The get rich quick mentality is alive and well. And will always be the downfall of the masses in this game.

Ralph appears to have broken BV through sheer saturation. Running a bot and coming to the table with a large BR. He bets without fear accepting  nerve shakng drawdowns. As he realises random can run. But its running around a playground. And sooner or later the law of averages brings it back to class.

The average Joe would have neither the BR or patience or inclination to do this on a real wheel. This style of saturation play can only thrive with machine Vs machine.

And so it goes on.

I would assume BV knows Ralph is running a bot.  Yet they do not ban him.  Is there even the slightest possibility this is an honest organization?  How many customers will Ralph bring them?  How many (me) will lose?   He's probably the best P.R. man their money can buy.

I want to buy stock in Ralph, Inc.   

TwoCat

"I want to buy stock in Ralph, Inc."

None left. I've got it all.

Quote from: spike on January 31, 2013, 12:17:26 AM
A casino knows players are worried they're being cheated.
So they cook up a 'random control' and the players are
happy as hell. The casino is delighted, as they use another
method entirely to pick the players pocket.

Except that the other method doesn't and can't work reliably, for reasons I mentioned previously. They can make some locations sleep longer than average, but which locations? and when do they activate the "snooze" button? They would just be guessing - doing it randomly! but in that case the random betting of the players would mean that sometimes it would work for them and other times it would work against them, in other words, the net effect would be zero extra advantage to them. The only way they can be sure to get an edge (and it's a 100% guaranteed one) is to spin a losing number AFTER the player makes his bet, and that's what RC checks.

The only way a casino will be sure of make a profit, is to follow the rules, take the profit from the advantages of the odds.
All other ways is gambling from the casino point, and casinos do not gamble, that's the players role. The casinos are big grinders 2.7% on a very fast turn over with virtually no risk. Just the rumor of dishonest will cost them in less profit.


A casino banning a honest player, show they do not believe the profit is for sure as long either the casinos or the players cheating.  The restrictions in winning and table limit are there to guarantee the cash flow, and be able to pay the winners any time.

Quote from: Ralph on January 31, 2013, 08:14:33 AM
The only way a casino will be sure of make a profit, is to follow the rules, take the profit from the advantages of the odds.
All other ways is gambling from the casino point, and casinos do not gamble, that's the players role.

Exactly!