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[Mr J]

I have a few threads that I like to re-post every couple years because I find the answers interesting, this is one such topic.

In order to "create" a DECENT (not a H.G.) method, you can NOT think like the masses do, you MUST look at roulette differently. Be creative, almost like a painter before he/she hits the canvas.

If this is you.... we get paid 35:1 and there are 38 numbers (throws hands in the air),

"That's it, no point in playing. We can't win". << If this is you, you will NEVER be able to think outside the box, trust me, you are doomed and don't even know it. You can't ask me..... "Hey Ken, how can I also think outside the box"?

I can't answer you, it can not be taught (imo). A person either has it OR does not have it, no middle ground (imo).

So what do you think? Can thinking outside the box be taught? Keep in mind please, I NEVER said, thinking outside the box will bring you riches, that's a different thread for YOU to start if you choose so don't ruin MY thread please.

Ken

[Mike]

I guess I'm one of those who you say can't think outside the box, at least with regard to roulette (systems and methods). But I disagree. If I pretend for moment that spins aren't independent, I can think outside the box as well as anyone, in fact I've posted a system on this forum which I haven't seen the like of anywhere else. However, I still know it won't win. Why? because in order to create that system, I've assumed something that isn't true, namely that spins aren't independent.


Thinking outside the box is appropriate for something like sports betting or trading; following the herd won't get results because the odds aren't fixed, but vary in proportion to the number of punters making similar bets. Sometimes this can work in your favor, ie "the trend is your friend", but other times not. That's why a good racing system will lose its effectiveness over time if too many people are using it.


In roulette, you can step outside the box of independent trials by taking into account those factors which generate the outcomes, namely physics.

[esoito]

Good question, Ken.

Both Edward de Bono and Albert Einstein would say 'yes'.

The former taught courses in 'lateral thinking' (definitely outside-the-box!)
[For a brief intro:  http://edwdebono.com/  ]

and Mr E (also an outstanding, creative, out-of-the-box thinker) stated: 

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand."


Developing and using imagination can be taught. So the more imaginative the individual the more likely he or she will think-outside-the-box.

[Mike]

To answer the specific question, then yes, I believe thinking out of the box can be taught. Esoito's example of Edward de Bono is a good one. He has written textbooks on creativity which show you how to generate new ideas deliberately on demand without waiting for inspiration. Some will be better than other at this, but everyone can learn it to some degree, if they have the desire.


But I will add one thing: reality is the final arbiter. Although we can *think* outside the box, we are still constrained by the box, in reality although not in thought. There is a world independent of us which behaves according to certain laws (which we have discovered, not invented). I can imagine a perpetual motion machine, or even try to build one, but it won't work, because it violates the second law of thermodynamics. We have to recognize that there are certain constraints which limit application of our ideas in the real world. This is not being defeatist or negative, but simply realistic.

[HansHuckebein]

I think it can be taught. but once taught you need to practise and "train your brain".

you could read hundreds of books about bodybuilding and diets. that won't make you look  like the Terminator at all. you have to hit the gym and start exercising.

I guess it's the same with trying to learn lateral thinking. it takes  time, patience and effort. and as in weight lifting  some people get better results than others. 

cheers

hans

[Dane]

Interesting question! Some of the children in "my Kindergarten" are able to paint better than me. But none of them are able to play the piano like me. Certain CREATIVE skills in different areas might be developed very early in life. There are numerous methods to develop our consciousness. I myself have practiced Transcendental Meditation (TM) almost as long as David Lynch.
Stuart Heritage (cool name!) wrote on this method in the Guardian on the 1ST of March this year [smiley]aes/rose.png[/smiley] (just do a Google search).
He compared it to BLINDFOLDNESS (or something like that 
In this article Stuart Heritage did not mention Money. Nowadays it is rather expensive [smiley]aes/rose_wilted.png[/smiley]to learn TM. Of course there are other methods. Try to find one that suits you!
                                                                                     Dane
                                                                                           

[VLS]

Interesting question! Some of the children in "my Kindergarten" are able to paint better than me. But none of them are able to play the piano like me.

Thanks for the anecdote Dane, kids are certainly a creative bunch


...I do believe as much as we can "learn to learn", we can learn to think different; either by our own personal initiative or directly learning by matching our thinking to that of a 3rd-party.


There are different "schools of thought" named after their founders, or labeled "old" and "new"; we can have our own "outside the box" school of thought too. So -if you ask me- it could definitely be taught   (IMHO)

[Dane]

Thanks for the anecdote Dane, kids are certainly a creative bunch


...I do believe as much as we can "learn to learn", we can learn to think different; either by our own personal initiative or directly learning by matching our thinking to that of a 3rd-party.


There are different "schools of thought" named after their founders, or labeled "old" and "new"; we can have our own "outside the box" school of thought too. So -if you ask me- it could definitely be taught   (IMHO)

Thanks for your reply! Recently someone stole my digital piano,
so I have been a bit out of balance. Even after decades with a scientifically validated meditation technique.
I do know that this is not a flower power competition [smiley]aes/girl.png[/smiley]
but I  really love your growing flower!
In my youth I read  something like this in a book on American poetry:

                                                                         Galileo Galilei has come to knock
                                                                                  and knock again
                                                                            on a small secluded doorway
                                                                               
                                                                                 in the ordinary brain

[The Crow]

No.

Thinking outside the box is an innate skill.

One who is not born with the gift, can only observe the results of out of the box thinking, and not create.

The Crow

[Carlitos]

" Outside the Box thinking ", wasn't that mentioned by our good friend " CEH ".....??








Carlitos 

[esoito]

No.

Thinking outside the box is an innate skill.

One who is not born with the gift, can only observe the results of out of the box thinking, and not create.

The Crow

Did you actually read the preceding posts? And then did you follow up on Edward de Bono?

Why do I ask? Because he actually teaches creative, out-of-the-box, lateral thinking.

And that fact is very much at odds with your comments above.

[The Crow]

Hi esoito,

IMO, I stated no, because it's like painting by numbers. Someone who does not know how to paint can be taught to paint by numbers. One may be taught to think outside the box, but is it truly out of the box thinking? I believe not.
Out of the box thinking is a reaction from someone who has the innate ability to create when there is a need, when conventional thinking does not facilitate that need. "Necessity is the mother of invention" Plato.
Out of the box thinking is a gift.
The Crow

[Mr J]

@Crow >> I agree 100%. I also compare this "thing we do" to a fine painter. I suck at painting, always have and I don't care what schools you send me to, I will never have/learn that talent. (When I say painting, I don't mean the kitchen walls, lol). ACTUAL ART !!!

If you suck at playing pool, you can LEARN the game and with much practice, get much better but to learn how to think outside the box?

In my opinion....it can't be done.

Learning how to play a certain method from another poster is far different from creating that method.

Ken

[esoito]

Ken...Ken...Ken...   Never say 'never'...LOLOL

Ponder this:

Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
    [Calvin Coolidge,    30th president of US 1872 - 1933 ]



If you persist you might, one day, hang in The Tate!

I mean, if Pollock can toss paint over a canvas, and those with more money than sense then pay thousands for the result (true)  there's hope for your artistic endeavours. 

[Gizmotron]

I shared my previous secrets  to watch critic's disbelief  and others to think about it.  The key to me is that I already know what works. I'm totally fascinated by those that can't see it.