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Resources => Math & Statistics => Topic started by: Dragoner on August 05, 2013, 09:54:15 AM

Title: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Dragoner on August 05, 2013, 09:54:15 AM
A mathematical approach to gambling (http://www.bettingknowhow.com/ev.htm)


[mod] This site link contains a support advert. http://www.bettingknowhow.com (http://www.bettingknowhow.com/ev.htm) Please be aware when you are clicking through. Cheers Chrisbis [/mod]
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: VLS on August 09, 2013, 03:45:11 PM
[smiley]welcome/welcome(6).gif[/smiley] to the forum Dragoner.

Interesting site you have there!
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Priyanka on August 09, 2013, 03:59:02 PM
Very informative.
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: esoito on August 10, 2013, 12:32:55 AM
Welcome to the forum.

Nice site, by the way.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Dragoner on August 10, 2013, 05:13:05 AM
You probably are.
If you elaborate on your problem, I could help you figure out what.
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: esoito on August 10, 2013, 05:57:20 AM
Quote from: Archie on August 10, 2013, 03:09:09 AM
Am I missing something here?  Lol.


A real mathematician who writes odds in terms of single numbers; and says, "Of course you could always play in fun mode, but I suppose it is more exciting playing with real money."  (And BTW, go to this casino here.)

So what?  Why shouldn't he write that?

You probably think he's an affiliate for BF. So what if he is? 

The readers make their OWN decisions as to whether or not they follow up the link for BF.

It's not as if the site is loaded with wall-to-wall affiliate links for just about every casino in existence, which seems to be standard practice amongst the scam sites.

Like I said -- nice site, Dragoner.


Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Dragoner on August 10, 2013, 06:28:17 AM
Thank you esoito!


Just to be clear... Yes, I am indeed an affiliate for BF.
My site is not a charity site but I do provide free information on it to the best of my knowledge. Take roulette for example. If I were to just lure people to casinos, I could have written something like: "Mathematically proven roulette system", like most of the casino affiliates and system sellers out there. Instead I went with the honest route, which I think adds to the value of my website.
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Albalaha on August 10, 2013, 07:01:25 AM
Dragoner,
            I really appreciate the way you are promoting your site.
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Bayes on August 10, 2013, 07:37:50 AM
I concur. Nice work, Dragoner. This forum needs more posters like you!  :applause:
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Dragoner on August 10, 2013, 09:46:32 AM
Thanks everyone for the kind words.
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Dane on August 10, 2013, 10:38:15 AM
Welcome Dragoner! It is fine, that you are focusing on MARTINGALE on your site. Numerous beginners are fascinated by this deadly progression
The rules favour players on Even Chances by the European roulette here in Europe. At least this is the case in the casinos, I use to visit: When ZERO comes, we are losing only half of the amount on Black, red, even, odd, high or low. So  in theory we should expect to lose not 2.7%  but only half as much right there.
Contrary to Martigale we might play PAROLI (a positive progression) and double our bet after winning. Time is still important, however, and we´ll never know when the series of winning ends.  But I tried practising paroli on two groups at the same time  . The two groups should be seen as one; and paroli should be used  only after winning both places at the same time.  The danger of losing both bets are less than losing only one.  So in most cases we´ll come from a paroli session without losing all. Knowing this is less stressfull than guessing when to stop, I suppose.
THE EXACT PROBABILITIES, DRAGONER? They are harder to find, that one should think. It is due to a small UNEVEN distribution inside the even chances:
Ten of the 18 red numbers are ODD, and eight red numbers are EVEN.
Similarly, only eight  black numbers are odd. Ten black numbers are even.
The chances of coming from a paroli session without losing all depends on the combination you chose!
                                                                           Dane
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Dragoner on August 10, 2013, 12:12:37 PM
Hi Dane,


If you get back half of your bet in case 0 comes up, then we can calculate the EV as:
EV=18/37*1-18/37*1-1/37*0,5=-1/37*0,5=-1/74
(18 numbers win, 18 lose, and 1 loses half)
So yes, as you mentioned, you only lose half as much.


As for the Paroli progression probabilities:
We always have 37 numbers, and we can divide them up for all the possible outcomes. If you go with red and odd,
like you said 10 numbers win (red and odd)
10 number loses (black and even)
1 number loses half (zero)
For the rest of the 16 we break even, as 1 bet wins the other loses.
So the probabilities of 1 round:
Win:10/37
Lose: 10/37
Lose half: 1/37
No change in bankroll: 16/37
The probabilities are the same if you go with black and even.
If you go with black and odd or red and even, then 8 numbers win, 8 lose, 1 loses half and 20 break even.
Probabilities for that:
Win: 8/37
Lose: 8/37
Lose half: 1/37
No change in bankroll: 20/37


These probabilities can be then used to go into more levels.
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Dane on August 10, 2013, 12:23:19 PM
Thanks for your reply!

The more levels we go into (the higher we go), the more exciting....[smiley]aes/smile.png[/smiley]
                                                          Dane
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: klw on August 10, 2013, 01:25:29 PM
Hi Dragoner ---  EV has been used in poker for years multi player pots being an example of where the maths boys will use EV to target these pots but how does it help us in roulette ? It's just our money versus the games payouts,as you have stated a negative EV. Re. The Betfair example from your site surely it is only 0 EV on the outside bets , the inside bets still attract a lesser payout than the appropriate odds of hitting so therefore is still a negative EV ?


Anyways interesting stuff all the same, nice site and welcome to the forum.


Cheers.
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Proofreaders2000 on August 10, 2013, 02:35:06 PM
It is a great site for the mathematically inclined.  Thanks for sharing and welcome to the Forum.  :thumbsup:

The maths are correct provided the casino dealers/staff do not skew the results.
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Dragoner on August 10, 2013, 03:29:34 PM
Hi klw,
It doesn't help us beat roulette. It helps us understand roulette, and how it can't be beaten. How a little house edge is enough for the casino for the guaranteed profits. This shows us how if we only make positive EV bets (in other games, where it is possible), we could make money just like the casino does.
As far as I know every bet in the no-zero roulette at Betfair has 0 EV. I just bet the same amount on every single number to verify this. With negative EV my bankroll should have decreased, but it stayed the same.
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Dragoner on August 10, 2013, 07:47:53 PM

Archie,

I mention on my site that you shouldn't play roulette for profits:

"This is why players believe they can win in the long run. But the casino knows better. The longer you play the less luck matters.
If you consider roulette fun, go play it, and pay the price. There is nothing wrong about spending money to have fun. Only this site is not about that."


"Like I said earlier, there is no winning roulette system, because it is not possible to make positive EV bets, therefore you shouldn't play roulette for profits."

I think it should be obvious whose best interest is taken to heart. I actually advise against playing roulette for profits.

What does that tell you?


The other game on my site is sports betting.

Since this is a player vs. player game, there isn't much of a conflict between the interests of my readers and the "casino". You really can be successful in sports betting.


Why I chose Betfair:
Even if we subtract the commission, the available odds are still usually (with the occasional exceptions) better than any other bookie gives you.

Also as a Betfair affiliate I get paid when my referred customers win. As opposed to other bookies, where you get paid when your referred customers lose.

So if my referred customers are successful, I get paid more.
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: klw on August 10, 2013, 08:41:33 PM
Hi Dragoner .... Why don't you just bet yourself using your obvious mathematical talents ? Another option might be work out your + EV bets and publish them on the forum here I'm sure there would be some interest in following them.


It's a win win situation.


Cheers.
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: Dragoner on August 10, 2013, 09:04:31 PM
I don't know enough about sports.
"Your knowledge about EV is not going to be enough by itself. We need to know the EV of our bets, and for that we need EV knowledge and sports knowledge as well."
Title: Re: Expected value in gambling
Post by: peleus on June 21, 2014, 06:52:52 PM
Quote Why don't you just bet yourself using your obvious mathematical talents ?

Good one. Use the formula that you said then show the people your numbers. That will work. (https://imagicon.info/cat/10-3/1.gif)