From my OP here in this thread:

"The issue of subjective and objective comes up here to really understand how a player's mind enters and goes along with his decision making process.  But that gets a bit complicated and off-track of gambling itself.  If you do not understand some basic psychology, you cannot and will not understand how you are influenced by problems, results, positive reinforcement or false positive reinforcement in gambling and baccarat."

BTW, I have read extensively, from some of the greatest and most achieved mathematical minds that have published some of the best and most comprehensions books on gambling, mathematics, statistical application of math, probabilities and theories. 

Here is an extremely short clip art I put together from on e of the greatest minds there is in math application theory and statistics and relating to gambling.  I will leave it rest at this is you can read for 2 min's and summarize. 

[attach=1]

I absolutely love, just adore the stuff out of the defensive argument thrown by each and every member here as well as on all the other boards about the great wins by all the great pro players, the very few there actually are, are all based and won by strictly mathematical wizards, AKA--'Math AP Players'.  But, what lacks is their answers to the following:  "Why don't they do it all the time, why only once in a while"?

Oh, let me answer.  How about we go with, 'they don't want to get banned'.  Okay.  Case closed, LOL. 

And for those of you that do not agree with that answer, how about we go with, 'those AP players rather not have too much money'.  Okay, once again, case closed.  LOL-again.   

"Oh yeah, and by the way give your reasoning how Don Johnson and Phil Ivey and all the rest of the great wins by famous or infamous gamblers are all based on math, statisticals and their special knowledge of mathematical secrets!  It makes great press copy in the media and gives them something to say, rather than, "I just hit a great streak—saw the opportunity because of 'so and so' and ride it until I started to fall off", etc.  They say, "I accomplished it because of learning the wizard's or the doctor's classroom teaching through years and years of study, I applied the math and I profited last night by millions of dollars", etc.  Here is the absolute truth to those people and their opportunities that they captured and exploited.  Opps, I just said the reason!  Anyway, if they really had that holy-grail through math and stats, they would apply it every day or once a week and win that same huge amount or greater amounts over and over.  Sorry that statement I just wrote is concrete reality, but go ahead and change it."

With great emphasis on this:

"When you stray too far into one perspective or another, making decisions from only one perspective in such a way that those same decisions would seem irrational when considered through the opposite lens, you're at risk of making serious errors. You could be basing those decisions on completely erroneous assumptions about how reality actually works, and hence you're at risk of experiencing massive failure with such a mono-lens approach unless you happen to guess right and be perfectly consistent."

Vision, Consciousness & Recognition of Funds

Whether it is bank roll or buy-in or win funds.  Does not matter.  A portion of players will handle their funds extremely consciously, very intelligent and with the knowledge and constant recognition, that the funds they possess, on the table, in their pocket, or those that are available,  should not govern them in their decision making processes, whatever that may be.  Pretty much straight forward and simplistic to the easiest ABCs and Gambling 101s.

However, I have asked many people that do play baccarat, as to their views and thoughts on win money in particular.  The rest the money situation and how each thinks about it, really is too varied and too complicated to understand without knowing those people 24/7 for huge amounts of time.  So, here it is from the horse's mouths as the saying goes.

I asked H-Money the other night.  Me: Say you won $100,000.00 from the casino and left with it, went and purchased two cars for $50,000.00 each.  Then you went back next week to any casino and lost your check of $1,500.00 that night.  Would you be down $1,500.00 or what?  H-Money:  No, I would be not be down, I would be up $98,500.00 if that was my second time gambling. 

He further went on to say, You have to keep a running total in your head, as to the amount you are up or down, because you are free to play if you are still and you have to be careful and play more cautiously if you are down until you get up again. 

WOW!  I actually heard almost that same thing from another two baccarat players that played the game for a couple of years or so.  Interesting!  I do believe that money management systems and thought/beliefs about win money, go hand in hand with how a player thinks, cashes out and gauges his play/session times at the table. 

I have definitely concluded for myself that refreshing and resetting during the sessions as well as at the end of the session, no matter the outcome (win or lose) is vitally important and in your favor tremendously. 

No resetting and refreshing is extremely dangerous;
Viewing wins as not yours is extremely dangerous;
Viewing cash out as up money is extremely dangerous;
Running tab---of wins and losses and gauging yourself according to same, is extremely dangerous.

The above leads most players to, have to make; have to earn; pressure; false positive reinforcements; forced sessions to produce; visions that cannot be seen or realized are even happening in front of them; possible reinforcing of negativity or caution that hampers their winning ability. 

Vision—Consciousness & Recognition of Funds

Whether it is bank roll or buy-in or win funds.  Does not matter.  A portion of players will handle their funds extremely consciously, very intelligent and with the knowledge and constant recognition, that the funds they possess, on the table, in their pocket, or those that are available,  should not govern them in their decision making processes, whatever that may be.  Pretty much straight forward and simplistic to the easiest ABC's and Gambling 101's.

However, I have asked many people that do play baccarat, as to their views and thoughts on 'win' money in particular.  The rest the money situation and how each thinks about it, really is too varied and too complicated to understand without knowing those people 24/7 for huge amounts of time.  So, here it is from the 'horses' mouths as the saying goes.

I asked H-Money the other night.  Me: "Say you won $100,000.00 from the casino and left with it, went and purchased two cars for $50,000.00 each.  Then you went back next week to any casino and lost your payroll check of $1,500.00 that night.  Would you be down $1,500.00 or what?"  H-Money:  "No, I would be up $98,500.00 if that was my second time gambling". 

He further went on to say, "You have to keep a running total in your head, as to the amount you are up or down, because you are free to play if you are still and you have to be careful and play more cautiously if you are down until you get up again." 

WOW!  I actually heard almost that same thing from another two baccarat players that played the game for a couple of years or so.  Interesting!  I do believe that money management systems and thought/beliefs about 'win' money, go hand in hand—with how a player thinks, cashes out and gauges his play/session times at the table. 

I have definitely concluded for myself that 'refreshing and resetting' during the sessions as well as at the end of the session, no matter the outcome (win or lose) is vitally important and in your favor tremendously. 

No 'resetting and refreshing' is extremely dangerous;
Viewing 'wins' as not yours is extremely dangerous;
Viewing 'cash outs' as 'up' money is extremely dangerous;
Running tab---of wins and losses and gauging yourself according to same, is extremely dangerous.

The above leads most players to, 'have to make'; 'have to earn'; 'pressure'; false positive reinforcements'; 'forced sessions to produce'; 'visions that cannot be seen or realized are even happening in front of them'; 'possible reinforcing of negativity or caution that hampers their winning ability'. 

"The inherently unknowable nature of reality can be a tough pill to swallow, at least initially. It can send you down the rabbit hole and back many times. But the more you surrender to this simple truth, the more wondrous reality can become."

TO ME, THAT SENTENCE HAS GREAT VALUE!  Here is the rest of it that Gizmo inspired m finish early this morning:

Either you play for what the statistical results say which, there is no way to have a definitive appearing schedule of results and in proper order to follow.  When you play that way you will be playing for a few units here and there, as your mind-frame will not allow you to follow streaks, chops, patterns/trends or anything of the like. 

I am sorry, I have played for decades and I have encountered every kind of player's mind frame, the above statistical and mathematical beliefs will reappear in their exact order as reported or translates from the long run to the 1 or 3 or 5 shoe session the player is sitting in front of.  Those will argue until their death, which the results have to appear because they play so much and so long that the 51% to 70% something, always comes about in their multi sessions and thus, 1% to 20 something percent is their claimed profit.  Their bankrolls have to be huge IMO and experience and their profits if they religiously live in the casino and gamble everyday are very minimal.  Again, IMO experience and extensive exposure to casino management within and outside of my immediate family. 

Oh yeah, and by the way give your reasoning how Don Johnson and Phil Ivey and all the rest of the great wins by famous or infamous gamblers are all based on math, statisticals and their special knowledge of mathematical secrets!  It makes great press copy in the media and gives them something to say, rather than, just hit a great streak, saw the opportunity because of so and so, and ride it until I started to fall off, etc.  They say, they accomplished it because of learning the wizard's or the doctor's classroom teaching through years and years of study, I applied the math and I profited last night by millions of dollars, etc.  Here is the absolute truth to those people and their opportunities that they captured and exploited.  Opps, I just said the reason!  Anyway, if they really had that holy-grail through math and stats, they would apply it every day or once a week and win that same huge amount or greater amounts over and over.  Sorry that statement I just wrote is concrete reality, but go ahead and change it. 

Their beliefs are the same as almost any industry that has rules, regulations and guidelines for deployment of most anything.  There is classroom and there is reality and real-life situations.  I have cited plenty within my writings on this board.  One-Size does not, cannot and will never fit all!!   But it makes for others to have a daily say so without producing anything in their behalf except their continued and repeated words without, proof, pictures, W-2's, Win-Losses, something anything, but continually nothing.  They will only cite their fear of getting banned from a game that the casino never bans anyone from unless they are cheating, bothering players after being warned or some other wrong doing--but never ever for winning too much, never. 

Can their system work?  Sure.  IMO, less than the proper way to play the game in real life.  In the classroom and on the calculator, they win.  But in real-life they lose or push at best.  And they seldom if ever, claim in their opinion, or their experiences, or anything of the like.  What they cite, claim and will die by, is their statistics, math, charts, graphs, books, calculations and textbook reasoning, that their way is scientific, backed up by concrete and solid mathematical findings, etc., etc., and blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda. 

But as I said above, if you do deploy that type of relationship to wagering, you cannot deviate to anything else at the table.  Then you fail to follow your method and believes.  No matter what!  That is the kicker.  It would be the same as saying safe sex for my entire life, except with so and so because I know she is 100% clean and drug/disease free and never has any other relationship outside of my occasional fling with her.  No different, I am sorry, but exactly the same.

The issue of subjective and objective comes up here to really understand how a player's mind enters and goes along with his decision making process.  But that gets a bit complicated and off-track of gambling itself.  If you do not understand some basic psychology, you cannot and will not understand how you are influenced by problems, results, positive reinforcement or false positive reinforcement in gambling and baccarat. 

Or, you play the game of baccarat prepared for the risk of loss in the attempt to match the shoe presentments which do, can and will frequently come in larger 'waves' than those of attempting the match up of the classroom and math stats that provide false positives thus disallowing you to profit extremely well on those same 'waves' of streaks, chops, patterns/trends and other presentments that are in contradictory to their 1% to 20 something percent repeating statistics that will only come in units of singular to few, with far less frequency than the 'reality of real-life shoe presentments', that are actually contained within their own mathematical and statistical testing--just that they view those very same presentments as 'nonexistent' and they are unable to capitalize on them.  Bottom line is, even with a statistic found with an 80% return rate, the shoes ran will have to be a minimum of a 10 million shoes series test.  That person has the false positive reinforcement that they will win 80% of the time if they play long enough.  But as I have always said, they cannot play the entire series in one continuous session which blows their win/prevailing statisticals out of the water.  They contend, does not matter how many sessions or how long they play, they count on their concurrent play status to provide them with profit, not an individual session.  Okay, fine, but they fail to actually recognize, they may actually be always playing during that 2,000,000 shoes 'section' of the stats that produced the 20% loss with the rejection of their 80% hit rate of that certain thing/wager.  Hence, a false positive.  False positives produces losses.  Period. 

Here is one of the few papers in part, I saved from my college days.  I do believe it applies to baccarat and the player's vision and mind-frame as I have so often mentioned.  Sadly, many players do not venture past the score board or score card in figuring anything out that might help them with their decisions and play time.

"Any event that you can describe objectively will have an equivalent subjective explanation, and vice versa. It is similar to viewing the world through your left eye vs. your right eye. Your eyes don't contradict each other; they just see every scene from different perspectives.

If you will never know whether you are living in an objective or subjective reality, it is foolish to assume that you are living in one or the other since you would only be guessing, and you could be very wrong. There is no evidence-based way to know the truth. This is not a problem that any level of science or philosophy can ever hope to resolve. The truth is simply unknowable, and it always will be. No conscious being, no matter how powerful and aware, will ever be able to know the true nature of the reality which contains it.

Hence it makes sense to live in alignment with both possibilities. View your key decisions in life through both lenses, and lean towards deciding based on the combined perspective of stereo vision. Do not limit yourself to one perspective or the other. Learn to integrate both.

When you stray too far into one perspective or another, making decisions from only one perspective in such a way that those same decisions would seem irrational when considered through the opposite lens, you are at risk of making serious errors. You could be basing those decisions on completely erroneous assumptions about how reality actually works, and hence you are at risk of experiencing massive failure with such a mono-lens approach unless you happen to guess right and be perfectly consistent.

It is possible to make decisions using both lenses. I have been using this approach for years, and it has produced a wonderful flow in my life when I am consistent about it. It is similar to enjoying a meal that stimulates all of your senses simultaneously, in other words, a symphony of input.

The inherently unknowable nature of reality can be a tough pill to swallow, at least initially. It can send you down the rabbit hole and back many times. But the more you surrender to this simple truth, the more wondrous reality can become."

Sat down with H-money before for a few hours and finally got into his brain and got it straight from the gambler about how he views lost money and win money.  All I can say is very interesting, very very interesting.

Quote from: Lugi on May 10, 2018, 08:50:36 AM
Basically we went from this;

Which then conveniently morphs into;

Mind boggling, a classic example of obfuscation.

I tend not to engage people at the casino, as you don't know what you are walking into.    People that have responsible careers, but when it comes to gambling!!   I've had the pain of enduring all kinds of weird sh*t.    Casino can change the order of the cards in the shoe, nobody knows what the angel machine is capable of with the eye in the sky.   "I'm the best player there is, but short of cash at this minute".   

Giving up your time, sanity and personal space to listen to some brain malfunction fuzzy logic, then when you explain, what it is they are telling you makes little sense.   The defend by reminding you, how they once won 95% of their bets placed in a shoe once.  Which in hindsight simply reinforced the delusional way of thinking, if it ever happened at all.  I shudder, even angry when people spin such baloney in my direction, who has time, or wants to hear that?   When you start to straighten the creased wires, expose the disillusionment, more is simply thrown on top. 

One wonders how on earth do such folk function on a daily basis?  Of course some don't, if you exclude hanging out of gambling joints.   Then you figure, it's simply not worth the effort thinking about, a no win situation, no need to understand, I've unfortunately already encountered it all in the real world.  The cognitive dissonance of the OP is breathtaking.

Have a good day Gentlemen

*****Moderator's Warning*****

One time warning.  Period.

DO NOT, I repeat--DO NOT insult other members here.  This is not allowed and I will not tolerate it any longer.

Check your negativity, humiliating desires, drama arguments and bad attitude at the door when you enter.

If 'ASYM' came on your thread--that is one thing to a certain point, citing disagreement or stating his experiences and thoughts--but still leaving out the negativity in a bad way, the humiliating desires, drama arguments and general bad attitude.

You came on 'ASYM's' thread and IMO he is a valuable and well respected member.  Regardless, does not matter if you came on another members thread with the member having only 10 posts and if you said the same thing in the same demeanor and humiliating style you did, I would answer the same way with the same warning. 

Do not bring on bashing, chastising, humiliation to a member or belittling in any way. 

If you don't like a member, enjoy reading his material, thoughts, finds, experience, whatever it is he is writing about, SKIP IT.  (BTW-all you have to do is block the member and you will not even see his material).

Personally, I say and add--if you really feel the way you do--stop wasting your time here and join another website/forum where there are mostly all multi million dollar winning professional baccarat players living the luxurious easy life, all you have to do is pay $52.00 or $60.00 month and magically you will be among a super elite group of members that not only earn millions of dollars (at the admission of the website owner) they really do bash most other message boards and their members. 

You directed your disrespect not only at the OP's posting but also personally at the OP.  Both at least once if not more in a generic choice words you attempted to use.  This is the reasoning for my warning.  As well, it applies to you and every one. 

Again, this is your First and Last warning, I emphasize that. [/u]

ASYM:

You said; "I was referring to the asymmetrical/symmetrical hands distribution with its deviations, an additional tool that IMO helps a lot."

Which is absolutely spot-on in baccarat as well as many aspects of even scientific method and published protocols of countless things.  Not just gambling.  That is where, IMO and only IMO, so many go wrong!

In my hazardous materials spill release remediation business, the state as well as the EPA has published rules and regulations as well as protocols, but the problem to the definitive mind is the addition of the four words always added, "May or May Not".  However, there is something called, "Lack of Receptors" which have variables and unknowns for 'Consideration" as well as "Exposure and Pathways".  One has to 'risk analysis the end points' taking into consideration the 'point source' and what spill released as well as the exposure, etc.  There is no science to the science that has to be applied and valued.  6 different people doing this, might get 6 different answers and outcomes and then maybe again, all 6 might very well agree, doubtful--but possible.

I could be on a job and a state official pulls up and tells me I have to do 'such and such' because  of his opinion of 'receptors' and you could be on the exact same job across the other side of the highway and be told an entirely opposite thing involving the same exact released product, terrain and pathways present.  Does it mean the decision I received was wrong or your was? 

No different in baccarat. "The consideration of termination or continuance would have to be justified by the likelihood of the outcome".  And such as with environmental matters, although there is science involved to the max, statistic's are not used in the absolute valuation of specific matters unless it involves a definitive set of conditions that would be rock-solid and no variance or deviations were able to occur.

Go figure.

Now, I tell him my feelings with brutal honesty and trying to make him stop believing the other arm-chair quarter backers at the table.  He sees these people (all Asians) win $5,000 or $10,000 in a couple/few wagers and then they try to bang the casino--hard and fast and they all lose, every single one of them.  Why?  Because they do not know when or how to leave, NONE of them.  Even if they do that night, they run back the next day, play larger and harder and larger and harder, continually.  Never learn-NEVER NEVER EVER.  No resetting, refreshing, no paying bills, no saving, no making gambling pay off, buy-in, win, win and leave and then give it all back and continue the buy ins.  Win at the casino and play and play and play and play until they lose it all, could be 2 hours, 6 hours, all night or a two day continuous stretch.  It is the same all the time with them all.  Never leave until broke or completely out of available funds.  Hundreds and hundreds and thousands of them.  98% Asians.  I am not biased or raciest, my wife and kids or Asian or mixed, but they suck at gambling, BAD! 

They win enough to buy a brand new Hyundai Sonata or a Honda Accord but they won't go buy one, they are shooting for that Maserati or Porsche, etc.  LOL!  It is comical.  I tell it to their faces and the dealers and floor people crack up laughing and say, "the white guy is right--but you guys don't listen', just the same.  Same as H-Money, same way 110%!  They all have these great dreams and in their minds they are all going to win millions and millions to fund their new luxurious lifestyle. 

Buy in with $1,500.00, win $10,000.00.  Stop, go back down to $1,000.00 or $1,500.00 buy in and forget about the $10k.  Spend it,do  not bank roll it and play at levels that only fuel your senseless and fallacy dreams.  Reset and Refresh, not meaning to take your win and take a break and come back in 30 mins and continue playing.  Completely wrong.  Your mind cannot operate that way.  In theory sure--not in reality.  Sorry math and statistical model guys, not the way it works in a casino.


Here are a few more texts from an hour ago. 

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[attach=2]

Too tired to go to the casino and concentrate, Long Weekend up in the Twin Cities just decided to come home and cook a pizza and put some great toppings on it and I'm going to post some texts from my buddy that are really sad and gut-wrenching and I don't think I'm going to give him any more advice cause I'm at wit's end and he does not listen! This has been going on for a couple months as y'all know. I've got other issues to worry about and I gave him too much energy and he's taking away too much from me and I heard that he lost$34,000 total so it would have been $25,000 win money $4,000 from the sister and I guess the $34,000 means he borrowed $5,000 from someone else he knows. A lot of people he knows are all the business people and he hasn't been gambling a long time so they don't know what's going on when he borrows the money.  But anyway that's the rest of the story, I'm going to post the 3 texts soon as I figure out how to send it from my cell phone to my tablet.

[attach=1]

[attach=2]

[attach=3]

I cut the second picture with the text that he sent me it says, " the reason I buy in I lose wants to get the money back".

Yes most certainly that is correct. And when you can see extreme value for low-risk and you see it there in front of you as you said it's much easier to walk away with something substantial then sit there and push it back and forth and get sucked in the volatility of the banker player if you didn't start winning and keep winning.

I'm on the way back and I'm gonna stop at the casino and play and then go home and open the  business in the morning and hopefully I win some tonight. probably play one shoe.  Had a nice bowl of PHO atmy wife's restaurant she gave me a nice bag of food to go for the road and on the interstate now

[attach=1]

He still will not listen, some people are telling him how much he can win and he can get it all back and all he has to do is play.  They are wrong and dead wrong.  Play and play and play and go everyday, is disaster to the max!  Here are the texts I received last night up to 4AM.

Not pretty.  All his win money is gone.  He will not, as most people, take his win money and pay bills, save it and allocate to anything--only icnreases his bank roll with a combat mission to smack the casino for millions.  OMG, same as we did in the 1980's in Atlantic City!

$25,000.00. Plus  $4,000.00 he borrowed from his sister.  Screw it.  Worse than arguing with a drug addict! 


[attach=1]

The shoe with 49 hands that was posted (missing the last 30 maybe? or ties and missing some?) anyway, I love a 20 to a 7 case sernario in the first 27 hands, wow.  And like I said in other posts, players are strong in the beginning much higher than 50% of the time.