You are not correct, and a lot of players attempt to hedge their wagers with a bet on the opposite side Dragon Wager, etc.

2 cards are only for a natural, which is 1 to 1. 

It pays according to the scheduled payout, does not matter unless it is a Natural for the winning side.  Ties push the wager.

Here read this, might explain it better:

https://www.caesars.com/images/non_image_assets/87235%201_4x9_RackCard.pdf

Quote from: Blue_Angel on October 16, 2017, 04:35:48 PM

If I do not type in word processing and then cut and paste, I have a habit of posting and then modifying until I am done, or I stand a chance to lose what I type if it is more than 1 or 2 sentences, for some reason.  So what I did that you were reading was, I posted the beginning and the ending and then filled it in as I went. It is now complete.

Yes, say the Banker had a 3 card 9 and the Players had a 6 and stand.  No bonus payout as the Banker won by 3.

Say the Banker had a 3 card 9 and the Players had 3 monkeys.  Banker won by 9 and a 30 to 1 payout r those that wagered the Dragon Bonus.

Say the Players had a 3 card 8 and the Banker had a 3 card total of 1.  The players would get paid the Dragon Bonus is they wagered it for winning by 7 points.

Quote from: Blue_Angel on October 16, 2017, 04:20:50 PM
Sorry but don't know much about Baccarat, could you explain those special bets when they win and how much is their respective payout?

1) dragon bonus
2) banker 6
3) panda 8

How about what I've suggested about ties?

Banker 6 is the same as Fortune 7.  Banker has to win with a 3 card 6.  I do believe the Banker loses 1/2 of their wager, I might be wrong??

Panda 8 is where the Players win with a 3 card 8 as well.  25 to 1 payout

Dragon Bonus is where one side, you can wager either side bonus, has to win by the following:

9, pays 30 to 1
8, pays 10 to 1  (some casinos have 15 to 1)
7, pays  6 to 1
6, pays  4 to 1
5, pays 2 to 1
4, pays 1 to 1

Naturals pay 1 to 1 for anyone wagering the Dragon Bonus and their side wins with the Dragon Bonus wagered.

Quote from: Blue_Angel on October 16, 2017, 04:10:00 PM
Aha! I thought "fortune 7" wins when there is a 7 streak for banker, that's why I've suggested to double up 6 times for the opposite side.
However, even if that was the case the 40 to 1 would return less than the 64 to 1 for 6 losses in a row.
This special bet is good value to lay it rather than back it, but of course don't offer you such option.
I was reading your previous post and I thought that if after so many shoes only 1 didn't has any tie then perhaps it would be good idea to bet for ties with a progression, let's say 1 shoe = 50 decisions and there must be at least 1 within 50 bets/steps, what do you think?

Here in the USA, most 'EZ Bac' tables (the ones without commissions and the Fortune/Panda 8's) are played all over.  Some have the 'Dragon Bonus' in lieu of the Panda 8 side wager.  But elsewhere, there is the Banker 6 side wager that is paid instead of the Fortune 7 side wager as I mentioned.  BTW, if you did not know, the Banker pushes on the F-7 win and on the Panda 8 win, the players do get the regualr wager paid as well, unlike the push on the F-7.

As far as the regularity of the Fortune 7 to prevail, is not always with consistency going to follow any statistical history for the few shoes a player will be playing for the session. 

I have seen on a consistent basis, NONE or 1 in an entire shoe.  I have also seen many shoes without a single one. 

I have wrote somewhere on this somewhere on this board reference what I do see, more so than not--reference the Fortune 7's.

Reference ties.  As long as you hit it in the next 7 or 8 hands dealt, you will prevail.

As far as the same applying to Fortune 7's.  I have been at countless tables where there are zero F-7's from the 40th to the 60th hands and then everyone is heavy on the F-7 wagering.  At times it does come out and yet--many times, it will not as well.  I would say on a consistent measure, it will be less than 50% to prevail when wagering, "because  it did not happen in the past 'XYZ' number of hands" type of theory.   

Quote from: Blue_Angel on October 16, 2017, 01:47:11 PM
Why don't you marty for the chop and use a "fortune 7" bet as an insurance?
If the chop/change happens up to and including 6th bet then you win by doubling up, if 7 streak then you win "fortune 7".

If you bet always like BPBPBPBPBPBP...etc then you win chops and streaks, the only nemesis sequence is PBPBPBPBPB...has to zig zag the exact opposite, but if zig zag identical then you'd win every bet.

From my point of view and IMO after playing for several decades:

Exactly what you said, many players would get 'sucked in', the highest majority of them.

Marty with only $200.00 out there, translates to $12,600.00 on the 6th wager:
$200.00
$400.00
$800.00
$1,600.00
$3,200.00
$6,400.00

You pretty much better be in Atlantic City, South Florida, or Vegas and a handful of casinos elsewhere in the USA anyways.

Risk versus reward and chance of losing $12,000.00 + dollars for a single unit profit of $200.00 sucks in my book.

A player with say a table min. of $25.00 out there would look like this:

$25.00
$50.00
$100.00
$200.00
$400.00
$800.00
$1,600.00

Risk versus reward on risking over $3,000.00 to win $25.00.

As far as chop, yeah--comes and goes. 

As far as Fortune 7, I was referring to the 40:1 wager where the Banker wins the side wager with a 3 card total of 7.  Not winning 7 Banker hands in a row, if that is what you said??

Quote from: AsymBacGuy on October 16, 2017, 12:56:13 AM
An entire shoe producing all B-P chops (even discounting ties) is impossible to believe.
Even admitting 30 ties, the probability to get 50 BP chopped hands represents a more than 7 sr deviation, that is the same probability to get a 50 hands streak.

In the history of roulette and baccarat there are no records of such values. 
(roulette records known= 42 blacks and 41 chopping hands)

If this should be true, it's an additional proof that baccarat tends to get the opposite outcome of the last happened. As bac streaks of 50 never happened.   

as.

'As', I put it over my kids.  I witnessed this one time in Atlantic City at the high limit room large Bac tables. Every single hand from start to finish with some ties.  And there was not 30 ties, I don't believe there was more than 12 or so ties, about average.  Your choice whether to believe me or not.

I also seen a shoe with zero ties, none.  Plenty with 2 or 3 ties, I think 1 or 2 with one tie (maybe), but one shoe with zero ties.

And as I said, one shoe of all doubles with a 3 in a row around the middle of the shoe somewhere, plus ties. 

Likewise and of the same importance would be all the countless shoes with no streaks, no Fortune 7's, etc., as well as the numerous shoes with all clusters of super strong formations, or 5, 6 or 7 Fortune 7's within 10-14 hands or so, and shoes with better than 20 ties, etc., etc. 

Like I have always said, play long enough and see everything.  Then when something else happens, you even tend to get that 'newbie'"OMG I can't believe what just happened" type of feeling.  LOL. 

I have witnessed several times over the years, streaks for both the Bankers and the Players ranging in the high 20's, like, 27-29 times.  I have heard from a handful of dealers about streaks in the high 30's as well.  Hard to believe, but I know they did happen.

So, are you Louis Tully or are you Vinz Clortho? Level with us.

Nothing really changes the highest majority of the time. 

Doctor Venkman proved that back in 1984 with electro shocks that,  negative reinforcement does affect most of us. 

So. A lot of brew haha!!  What the hell is the prediction now for today?

Like I said, an old Chinese man told me!!!!

Like some pointing to the score board with tons of conviction,  LOL.

Quote from: Blue_Angel on October 15, 2017, 01:45:08 PM
Thank you Victor, may your path be a victorious one as your name suggests.

I'd like to clarify about my 3 aforementioned methods, they are a solid base but not exactly what I'm using now, parameters left out intentionally.
As they are, they will win most of the times, yet better than many others.
As a matter of fact the complete solution is a combination of them, from which and to what proportion of each I'm leaving it to your judgement.

And in reality as well as IMO, one of the most honest statements ever made in the field of systems, etc. 

Probably the same ideas and experiences I have found in real BAC play, like I have tried to define???  Reference the agenda and reasons why events happen or don't happen, even more so why we wager for or against them. 

Same here Vic!  I could not find a button or a credit card/debit card payment button.  I do not do PayPal in the classical sens the way we used to, i can only do it like they do on Ebay or Amazon, using a regular credit card/debit card, I gave up my PayPal account years ago......

An old Chinese man gave me the answer to the question here.

And that answer was.......................................

"I Zont Zink Zo", with a heavy accent. 

The 5th paragraph down is:

"The problem in baccarat is that there is so many short term deviations, you cannot apply what you interpreted just happened in the past several hands into the current series or the next series of what will actually be produced as winning hands.  And when you fall into that rut, your aggravation and frustration levels become huge.  Then your mind frame, concentration and thoughts are negatively affected without your conscious knowledge.   Then you miss the easy or easier or ever so prevalent (whatever you want to label it) coincidences that formed and all your wagers were on something completely opposite because you were stuck in some cloud and just plain frustrated to the point of being blind.  Your aggravation and frustration levels are so high you are a danger to yourself and your bankroll/buy-in.  So the really good sections with repeating small trends—that you would have probably wagered on and caught, were not so good to you and you lost money."

If you do not believe it--you will when you play the game long enough, IMO and IMO very strongly!

The bottom line---There are no set rules for 'something' to happen or not happen.  And, that very 'something' might or might not appear.

Those players that are there and pointing to the score board and verbally citing why something is or is not going to happen are the most out of tune and out of place--players I have ever witnessed.  However, I do understand with certain reasoning and certain selectivity--but not on the, almost every hand or every few hands regularity all these players have.  Bottom line--There are always exceptions and irregularities in defining sections and turning points of the shoe presentment that is occurring.   

"Randomness and bias—produces coincidences and that is where the highest majority of all baccarat players go astray.  Coincidences can be exploited as if they were predictable, even though they are mathematically NEVER predictable.  And that my friend is the casino's greatest friend and the players worst nightmare."

And on a side note as been mentioned before, the single best thing the casinos did was install the score board.  That has to be the single largest income helper for the casino in the game since they had the game of baccarat.