Yes, say the Banker had a 3 card 9 and the Players had a 6 and stand.  No bonus payout as the Banker won by 3.

Say the Banker had a 3 card 9 and the Players had 3 monkeys.  Banker won by 9 and a 30 to 1 payout r those that wagered the Dragon Bonus.

Say the Players had a 3 card 8 and the Banker had a 3 card total of 1.  The players would get paid the Dragon Bonus is they wagered it for winning by 7 points.

Quote from: Blue_Angel on October 16, 2017, 04:20:50 PM
Sorry but don't know much about Baccarat, could you explain those special bets when they win and how much is their respective payout?

1) dragon bonus
2) banker 6
3) panda 8

How about what I've suggested about ties?

Banker 6 is the same as Fortune 7.  Banker has to win with a 3 card 6.  I do believe the Banker loses 1/2 of their wager, I might be wrong??

Panda 8 is where the Players win with a 3 card 8 as well.  25 to 1 payout

Dragon Bonus is where one side, you can wager either side bonus, has to win by the following:

9, pays 30 to 1
8, pays 10 to 1  (some casinos have 15 to 1)
7, pays  6 to 1
6, pays  4 to 1
5, pays 2 to 1
4, pays 1 to 1

Naturals pay 1 to 1 for anyone wagering the Dragon Bonus and their side wins with the Dragon Bonus wagered.

Quote from: Blue_Angel on October 16, 2017, 04:10:00 PM
Aha! I thought "fortune 7" wins when there is a 7 streak for banker, that's why I've suggested to double up 6 times for the opposite side.
However, even if that was the case the 40 to 1 would return less than the 64 to 1 for 6 losses in a row.
This special bet is good value to lay it rather than back it, but of course don't offer you such option.
I was reading your previous post and I thought that if after so many shoes only 1 didn't has any tie then perhaps it would be good idea to bet for ties with a progression, let's say 1 shoe = 50 decisions and there must be at least 1 within 50 bets/steps, what do you think?

Here in the USA, most 'EZ Bac' tables (the ones without commissions and the Fortune/Panda 8's) are played all over.  Some have the 'Dragon Bonus' in lieu of the Panda 8 side wager.  But elsewhere, there is the Banker 6 side wager that is paid instead of the Fortune 7 side wager as I mentioned.  BTW, if you did not know, the Banker pushes on the F-7 win and on the Panda 8 win, the players do get the regualr wager paid as well, unlike the push on the F-7.

As far as the regularity of the Fortune 7 to prevail, is not always with consistency going to follow any statistical history for the few shoes a player will be playing for the session. 

I have seen on a consistent basis, NONE or 1 in an entire shoe.  I have also seen many shoes without a single one. 

I have wrote somewhere on this somewhere on this board reference what I do see, more so than not--reference the Fortune 7's.

Reference ties.  As long as you hit it in the next 7 or 8 hands dealt, you will prevail.

As far as the same applying to Fortune 7's.  I have been at countless tables where there are zero F-7's from the 40th to the 60th hands and then everyone is heavy on the F-7 wagering.  At times it does come out and yet--many times, it will not as well.  I would say on a consistent measure, it will be less than 50% to prevail when wagering, "because  it did not happen in the past 'XYZ' number of hands" type of theory.   

Quote from: Blue_Angel on October 16, 2017, 01:47:11 PM
Why don't you marty for the chop and use a "fortune 7" bet as an insurance?
If the chop/change happens up to and including 6th bet then you win by doubling up, if 7 streak then you win "fortune 7".

If you bet always like BPBPBPBPBPBP...etc then you win chops and streaks, the only nemesis sequence is PBPBPBPBPB...has to zig zag the exact opposite, but if zig zag identical then you'd win every bet.

From my point of view and IMO after playing for several decades:

Exactly what you said, many players would get 'sucked in', the highest majority of them.

Marty with only $200.00 out there, translates to $12,600.00 on the 6th wager:
$200.00
$400.00
$800.00
$1,600.00
$3,200.00
$6,400.00

You pretty much better be in Atlantic City, South Florida, or Vegas and a handful of casinos elsewhere in the USA anyways.

Risk versus reward and chance of losing $12,000.00 + dollars for a single unit profit of $200.00 sucks in my book.

A player with say a table min. of $25.00 out there would look like this:

$25.00
$50.00
$100.00
$200.00
$400.00
$800.00
$1,600.00

Risk versus reward on risking over $3,000.00 to win $25.00.

As far as chop, yeah--comes and goes. 

As far as Fortune 7, I was referring to the 40:1 wager where the Banker wins the side wager with a 3 card total of 7.  Not winning 7 Banker hands in a row, if that is what you said??

Quote from: AsymBacGuy on October 16, 2017, 12:56:13 AM
An entire shoe producing all B-P chops (even discounting ties) is impossible to believe.
Even admitting 30 ties, the probability to get 50 BP chopped hands represents a more than 7 sr deviation, that is the same probability to get a 50 hands streak.

In the history of roulette and baccarat there are no records of such values. 
(roulette records known= 42 blacks and 41 chopping hands)

If this should be true, it's an additional proof that baccarat tends to get the opposite outcome of the last happened. As bac streaks of 50 never happened.   

as.

'As', I put it over my kids.  I witnessed this one time in Atlantic City at the high limit room large Bac tables. Every single hand from start to finish with some ties.  And there was not 30 ties, I don't believe there was more than 12 or so ties, about average.  Your choice whether to believe me or not.

I also seen a shoe with zero ties, none.  Plenty with 2 or 3 ties, I think 1 or 2 with one tie (maybe), but one shoe with zero ties.

And as I said, one shoe of all doubles with a 3 in a row around the middle of the shoe somewhere, plus ties. 

Likewise and of the same importance would be all the countless shoes with no streaks, no Fortune 7's, etc., as well as the numerous shoes with all clusters of super strong formations, or 5, 6 or 7 Fortune 7's within 10-14 hands or so, and shoes with better than 20 ties, etc., etc. 

Like I have always said, play long enough and see everything.  Then when something else happens, you even tend to get that 'newbie'"OMG I can't believe what just happened" type of feeling.  LOL. 

I have witnessed several times over the years, streaks for both the Bankers and the Players ranging in the high 20's, like, 27-29 times.  I have heard from a handful of dealers about streaks in the high 30's as well.  Hard to believe, but I know they did happen.

So, are you Louis Tully or are you Vinz Clortho? Level with us.

Nothing really changes the highest majority of the time. 

Doctor Venkman proved that back in 1984 with electro shocks that,  negative reinforcement does affect most of us. 

So. A lot of brew haha!!  What the hell is the prediction now for today?

Like I said, an old Chinese man told me!!!!

Like some pointing to the score board with tons of conviction,  LOL.

Quote from: Blue_Angel on October 15, 2017, 01:45:08 PM
Thank you Victor, may your path be a victorious one as your name suggests.

I'd like to clarify about my 3 aforementioned methods, they are a solid base but not exactly what I'm using now, parameters left out intentionally.
As they are, they will win most of the times, yet better than many others.
As a matter of fact the complete solution is a combination of them, from which and to what proportion of each I'm leaving it to your judgement.

And in reality as well as IMO, one of the most honest statements ever made in the field of systems, etc. 

Probably the same ideas and experiences I have found in real BAC play, like I have tried to define???  Reference the agenda and reasons why events happen or don't happen, even more so why we wager for or against them. 

Same here Vic!  I could not find a button or a credit card/debit card payment button.  I do not do PayPal in the classical sens the way we used to, i can only do it like they do on Ebay or Amazon, using a regular credit card/debit card, I gave up my PayPal account years ago......

An old Chinese man gave me the answer to the question here.

And that answer was.......................................

"I Zont Zink Zo", with a heavy accent. 

The 5th paragraph down is:

"The problem in baccarat is that there is so many short term deviations, you cannot apply what you interpreted just happened in the past several hands into the current series or the next series of what will actually be produced as winning hands.  And when you fall into that rut, your aggravation and frustration levels become huge.  Then your mind frame, concentration and thoughts are negatively affected without your conscious knowledge.   Then you miss the easy or easier or ever so prevalent (whatever you want to label it) coincidences that formed and all your wagers were on something completely opposite because you were stuck in some cloud and just plain frustrated to the point of being blind.  Your aggravation and frustration levels are so high you are a danger to yourself and your bankroll/buy-in.  So the really good sections with repeating small trends—that you would have probably wagered on and caught, were not so good to you and you lost money."

If you do not believe it--you will when you play the game long enough, IMO and IMO very strongly!

The bottom line---There are no set rules for 'something' to happen or not happen.  And, that very 'something' might or might not appear.

Those players that are there and pointing to the score board and verbally citing why something is or is not going to happen are the most out of tune and out of place--players I have ever witnessed.  However, I do understand with certain reasoning and certain selectivity--but not on the, almost every hand or every few hands regularity all these players have.  Bottom line--There are always exceptions and irregularities in defining sections and turning points of the shoe presentment that is occurring.   

"Randomness and bias—produces coincidences and that is where the highest majority of all baccarat players go astray.  Coincidences can be exploited as if they were predictable, even though they are mathematically NEVER predictable.  And that my friend is the casino's greatest friend and the players worst nightmare."

And on a side note as been mentioned before, the single best thing the casinos did was install the score board.  That has to be the single largest income helper for the casino in the game since they had the game of baccarat. 

One great (REALLY GREAT) thing about Amazon is they generally will stand behind the products they sell or their advertisers sell through them.  I have never returned a book, however--I have a couple of times returned other items for reasons of 'non satisfaction' or 'not up to what it was advertised' to be, etc.  never a peep from Amazon, instant refund.   

On a side note.

I went back over this and re-read it.  I missed this one thing:

" You use a plethora of words strategically placed creating the illusion that you are some authority on the subject that you are authoring."

If that is what you believe, fine.  That is your assumption and deduction.  However, fact is--I know more than some and not as much as others, perhaps?

And, " I for one am a state certified teacher and write for a living.  I can read through your lines of "BS"."

As far as writing for a living, I do not, you might--I do not.  You have your opinions and your vision of what I am and what I think, but those thoughts and visions are from you, not myself. 

My personalty and my experience is what it is.  My background in years of owning and running an illegal business in New York City as well as gambling for several decades in Atlantic City which at the time all the people in the high limit rooms seldom were found with their heads down in their hands in a somber and depressed state as so many find themselves in Vegas for example, tend to stay with me in an ingrained personalty.  So again, since you labeled my writing as well as myself "BS", why even the communication, supposedly you have nothing to prove.  Unless someone or some people put you up to it??

Quote from: CT on October 10, 2017, 06:23:33 PM
   I am a member of one of those forums that you are referring to.  Let's set the record straight, you first become a member of that forum and all you contributed was a cut-and-paste version of what you put on here.  I for one am a state certified teacher and write for a living.  I can read through your lines of "BS".  You use a plethora of words strategically placed creating the illusion that you are some authority on the subject that you are authoring.  You can summarize all your "War and Peace" in two or three lines but the two or three lines doesn't create the illusion.  It is commonly referred as "Succinct Writing", look it up and one day you may save people some time so they don't have to wade through the BS.  Also, to set the record straight, you stated that you wrote this knowing that some members read this blog.  Know this, you didn't bait me into anything.  I think that you and I are alike.  We both can't leave things alone.  I have never even heard of this blog although I am sure it is very good. ( Correct, I did join another forum as you state.  Correct, I did cut and paste from my writing on this forum.  I am under no impression that was illegal, immoral, unethical or against any rules or regulations.  I thought, honestly it was a way to introduce myself and offer something. I was in no competition or frame-of-mind to outdo anyone or compete in anyway.  If you can read through my writing and label it BS, all fine, I have said many times, "If you don't like someone, enjoy their writing, feel you can profit something from them, think you can learn something from them, why even read it--leave it alone and move on.  Unless they are challenging something you wrote or something you are connected to.  I don't believe I was challenge anything or anybody.  Your co-members came on and denounce, degraded and attempted humiliation like young children.  Period.   I choose not to associate myself with your board and desired my posts removed for personal reasons I rather not go into, reasons that i have facts and evidence of wrong doing and unethical type of things by certain people.)

   When a few of the members of that forum either knew of you or read between the lines they called you on it.  One of the members simply made a comment that there is no one in the forum that advocates chasing their bets after your LONG AND BORING thread suggesting not to chase their bets (BTW, Great advice).  You then replied that you're services were not appreciated and you said you were going to take your toys and go home.  You then picked a fight with several members of the forum one day after the Las Vegas Shooting and made some sarcastic remarks about suggesting one of the members join the LVPD to help with their investigation.  One of the members called you out on that and you showed no remorse.  Obviously this forum is not enough for you because when the owner of the forum banned you, you decided to try to join the forum under several different aliases WITH THE SAME IP ADDRESS (Total amateurish move).

(I choose to leave and 'go home' as you said for the reasons I stated above.  In my mind I did not pick a fight.  They did, might have threw my 2 cents in, right or wrong, but they did legitimately start it in every way.  As far as the LVPD/Vegas comment, I simply told them, since they are so smart and can figure everything out without evidence and all that, go join the LVPD investigation and put their great investigatory experience to good use.  I in no way demeaned or humiliated anything or anyone with the Vegas events.  BTW, i lived through the 9-11 event being less than 7 air miles away when it happened with a business and extended family.  Numerous members of my family and friends lost their lives, many NYFD in my family, etc.  I never ever said anything that disrespected what happened i Vegas, never.  You insinuate I did and that in-itself is dead wrong. As far as joining or re-joining your forum under fake names, etc., I did not.  Just possibly, never thought of, someone in my employ also follows me on the boards and joined using the same IP address as we share the same location.  i do have someone here in my employment that plays the past several years and I would suspect he joined.  I seriously said what had to and when I was banned t was my end.  I thought I made that clear on the board itself.)

   The forum that you are referring to has tons of quality players (Including me) that are playing for a living and making a lot of money.  A few years ago this forum you are referring to got rid of the pompous, self-ordained Baccarat Messiah and they didn't want to welcome in another one.   (As far as that, maybe-very possible, could be, I never said it did not and if i did--that statement came out of retaliatory NYC type of language I can only assume).

   In closing, I would love to play Baccarat with you.  Let me know where you play and I will meet you.  I wouldn't mind talking about the game with you.  You obviously have a lot of knowledge and you have a craving to share it and FOR THAT you have garnered my respect.  What you need to do is check your ego at the door and realize that there are people that know just as much as you if not more.  You also shouldn't be so easily miffed if people call you on something.     

(As far as playing baccarat together, maybe-I play in the Midwest on a local basis.  I play in Vegas, Southern California and at times on the east coast where I am from.  I seriously don't know why you would really, I am pompous, a jerk off, a little kid that grabs my toys and runs home, I only know things all you and your co-members have forgotten, etc., etc., and so on.   As far as the ego, at times yes and just possibly that is because  where I am from as well as the type of business I am in.  But hey, it is what it is.  When I feel strongly about something or other people, there is usually a very personal reason or other factual basis to it, more than "Oh I heard so and so say such and such on the board", etc., etc.  And, I seldom go on and demean and humiliate someone because I forgot everything they are writing about or I do not just plain endorse them or care for them to be on a message board, etc.  I have said, a very busy and interactive classroom is much better than a boring one where the teacher is reading everything out of a textbook and the students all have their heads down in their hands the entire class period. 

As far as the person are probably referring to, I was also blasted because  I play with black chips at best and they play with purples and yellows.  I have news for you, in Vegas I am a yellow, chocolate, and flag or better player without flaunting or exploiting it anyways, but that is all the nonsense you guys seem to get in over where you are talking about all this happened.  People do not know everything they are saying and swearing up and down it is the truth or acting like it is and yet--others believe and repeat what they hear through the grape vine.)

We can just leave it at this--your board has the best and most experienced baccarat players that simply know everything about the game and they win tons and tons of money.  They really do not need any interfacing with myself because  I know basically only what they forgot and also---all of my writing is complete BS.  But I do thank you for your visit here and your kind thoughts you relayed.  As far as my blog, I will save you a whole lot of time, trouble and effort, don't read anything because it is all worthless and succinct.

If you really think we should talk, you can always PM me here and leave your phone number.  I have nothing to hide and we might enjoy a real conversation??   

So much of the problem IMO, really comes from some message board  members that believe they really do know everything while they have played at a casino or two or three and played for a total of a few years or even five years or so.  They have little outside of the casino and their entire lifestyle is the casino and the message board, possibly some have an exciting evening at the WaWa or 7/11 or SuperAmerica or Holiday or the almighty famous Kum&Go, etc.