Quote from: Mr J on March 07, 2014, 02:33:53 PM
Listen, some (not all) of you guys are just not catching on. When Xander, Snowman, Caleb, Farnsworth, Keyser are ON SCENE, there is not much point of posting a method (as you see).

The "you can't win" & "you'll never win playing methods" will be STUFFED down your throat until you are foaming at the mouth. You're better off keeping your IDEA to yourself (imo). Besides, you really don't need approval from others, correct? That's one thing that took me years to figure out.

Oh, Bob Smith doesn't like my method? Well, f**k Bob Smith and the horse he road in on. (lol)

Xander, Snowman, Caleb, Farnsworth, Keyser has NO PROOF he does well with his AP (cough) tactics, so, why listen? Fair question, again, its only my opinion. The other ODD thing.....some of the members that AGREE with him.......DRUM ROLL........ play methods!    Pure comedy.

Ken

This post says so much in the way of intelligence and rationalizing out it's not even laughable Ken is so spot-on about attitude and aura basic 101 forumolgy!

You are what you are, the same as myself. 

The only mistake I made on any board was the 'Saturday Night Live' type of skits converted into the written words/posts I had made regarding systems, other members and such.

The rest of just about everything I ever posted, deleted and re-posted, has been my experiences, downright real, justified if needed and absolutely the truth or what I believed to the last word.  Not, words of hate and spite and words that attempted to demolish or put someone's light's out, so to say. But others that are drama driven and pretty much full-time internet types, certainly roll with it all and use what I have said or said in pun to boast themselves and pass themselves off as multi interracial and savior to any and all people.   

Problem is, so many are exclusively inhibited and as well--introverted on here.  They picture just about everyone else the same or just below themselves with little to no imagination, experience or optimism.  All of course, IMO.

I thought for a while--we were about on the same level, play--experience wise that is.  But you did (again IMO) go a tad bit too far with the medical, personal and professional valuations regarding myself.  Why?  I can't really say.  Maybe I was just there. 

I seriously have been through some pretty tumultuous times and experiences in my life from being affiliated through marriage with NYC Asian Triads to all out criminal activity regarding adult businesses and financially related activity and businesses, to non-gambling and non-criminal professions that were just nasty-dirty and extremely difficult years with the history of them, etc. 

I generally (unless pun is intended or some other form of humor) tell the truth with explicit and redundant tenacity on here.  Yes, I have been on other boards and self-banned myself or been banned for generally not caring one bit about what they stand for and got in some two bit 'back alley' fight with some internet troll.  Like I did on the other forum I last told the Admin to ban myself.  I just got that NYC 'don't give a F*** attitude when I take a stand for something', etc., etc. 

As far as accepting or not accepting an apology of the type you made, I honestly see no reason to have even brought up what you did.  You have nothing to prove here the same as myself, although I have tried at times, why---I could not answer except to say, I write the honest and unforgiving truth. 

There is a way to gamble and there certainly are many ways not to gamble.  The same as writing on the board here or anywhere else.

Just because someone gambles differently than myself does not make him or her inferior or superior to myself or anyone else for that matter.  Likewise, the way others write and what they write about or belief in, the exact same would have to hold true as well.  If we were all the same, this world would really suck a heck of a lot more than it already does.  And, you and your few buddies that ganged up together, certainly write and dictate one-sided non verifiable experiences and dialog a heck of a lot more than I have or ever have done.  So be it.  Truth like that is hard to defend and show, it just lies there and is interpreted by those that read. 

The bottom line?  And many will not like it, some will take it and twist and turn it and use it against me, others might realize something from it and begin their own journey into finally realizing how to win and stop.  But here it is.  You cannot race bicycles without knowing how to ride one in the first place.  You cannot swim in competition without knowing how to swim in the first place.  You cannot race a car without knowing how to drive one in the first place.  You cannot be a novelist without having basic skills in writing, reading, organizational and researching skills in the first place.  You cannot be successful in gambling without having experienced losses and wins in the first place.

It is the realization and the comprehension of the proper skills and protocols that will allow you to take advantage of what casino games present.  Meaning, how to actually recognize risk, manage it and at the same time, the ability to cash out and be comfortable at your levels and plateaus that govern your casino time and play. 

Wishing you the best as I always have.  Although at your own admission your previous apology to myself was a lie and a piece of made up drama, mine is not.

Maybe one day you will realize...Alrelax/Glen.

A tour up to the Boardwalk starting on the south side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp-MXQF3MYE

Atlantic City.  I remember it well.  A good basic story.  Enjoy!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0EQk5Inz2c

Classic!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fdPX1sjgG0

Dedicated to "The Gambler".   Mr. Terrance Watanabe

Like NIKE says, "Just Do IT!".

Terrance Watanabe (born 1962) is an American born Japanese businessman who inherited Oriental Trading Company, a direct merchant of value-priced party supplies, arts and crafts, toys and novelties and school supplies founded by his father Harry Watanabe. Terrance was known for the large amounts of money he wagered at Las Vegas casinos.

Business background

In 1977, Terry Watanabe became president and part owner of Oriental Trading Company shifting the focus from carnivals to supplying party goods for churches, schools, retailers, and individuals.  In 2000, Watanabe sold his entire stake in the company to Los Angeles-based private equity firm Brentwood Associates, and resigned as CEO and President. He became a philanthropist, but subsequently lost most of his fortune gambling in Las Vegas.

Gambling habits

After selling his company, Watanabe became known for his lavish gambling habits. In 2007, he was reported to have lost $127 million at Caesar's Palace and The Rio in Las Vegas after having gambled a total of $825 million. He was banned from Wynn Las Vegas for compulsive gambling. Watanabe is estimated to have lost approximately $204 million.

Caesars Entertainment Corporation was fined $225,000 by the New Jersey Gaming Commission for allowing Watanabe to continue gambling in a highly intoxicated state, though Watanabe's losses occurred in Las Vegas. Caesars alleges that Watanabe "was using marijuana and/or cocaine and made sexual advances toward employees". Caesars Rewards created a special tier for him known as "Chairman" which ranks above "Seven Stars". Watanabe received "tickets to the Rolling Stones, $12,500 a month for airfare and $500,000 in credit at the gift stores. Harrah's also offered 15% cash back on table losses greater than $500,000, special high-limit games and other incentives".

People like Terrance make the world go around and around!  Like the song says by Steelers Wheel, 'Clowns to the left and Jokers to the right'.  This is Terrance, the whale at the tables!

GREED.......GREED>>>>>GREED.......GREED>>>>>>GREED!


Poker's Greatest All-Time Whales: Terrance Watanabe:
https://www.pokerlistings.com/poker-s-all-time-greatest-whales-terrance-watanabe

Card Player Magazine Article New Jersey CCC fines Caesar?s Entertainment:
https://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/15243-caesars-fined-225k-over-not-kicking-out-belligerent-high-roller-on-historic-losing-streak

The Wall Street Journal Article:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB125996714714577317

We all did very well with a One + One and then a 2 + 2 and then a 4 + 4 and then back down to one or increased to two units and do the same thing once again pulling down 7 or 14 units if we completed three wins,  no matter if we waited out hands or consecutively played hands.

And, if you understand what I am saying; "It is about progressions, parlays and accumulating that amount each time or during a cumulative amount of times, that outweighs the variance, the house edge, your own default rate, etc., that you engage yourself in.  You have to figure out how each $100 you play with, will allow you to win after you lose a certain amount.  And IMO, experience and everything else combined, I found a certain way to be able to win at baccarat.  And that is to realize time, money, emotional, psychological and frame of mind all combined will determine how your decision making process allows you to accumulate and allocated your wins and how you manage the losses that will happen.  Those that think and believe everything I just mentioned does not apply to them, are just wasting their time being here anyway." 

Most of it can be tackled with the right frame-of-mind and a decent wagering plan that will allow you to turn winning profits into larger winning profits, etc.  Follow up with:  https://betselection.cc/wagering-intricacies/buy-in-1-3-2-6-14-wagering-money-management-system-10680/

Winning, losing and pushing.  That is the only 3 things a player can do at the casino table.  There are no other outcomes.

The results that you experience at the table will not and cannot follow any sort of governed or stable distribution of presentments or results from the shoe.  Because the possibilities as we already established are far too great to narrow down to a certain section of 80 hands or a cumulative total of 160 or 320 or 640 or 5,000 hands, and so on, that will produce what we all are seeking, winning hands.  So many people will combat just that with their defense of Martingale or their application of any one of the numerous theorems or systems that they read about or believe in.

Seriously people, the only way to profit is to smack the casino real hard and outweigh your losses in the attempt to get to that point, each time or at least every 2, 3 or 4 times you attempt playing.  IMO, there is no other way.  Unlike paper, the computer, trials, running tests, etc., you have finite capital, period.  No two ways about it.  The casino does not.  (Here, let me give you copy & paste people something to post elsewhere.  You sit down at a computer to practice, no matter if that practice is with modeling and running theories or playing for no money in an on-line game like on the WoV website or something like 21Aces posted about with squeeze type practice, etc., etc.  You have unlimited capital and unlimited hands that will make you feel confident and great with huge advantages, but carry those moves over to a real casino and see how it goes and what happens to your finite capital.  No matter if that capital is $5,000.00 or $50,000.00 or $500,000.00.  Does not matter, you have finite capital, PERIOD!  On the internet with practice, modeling, running possible hands and all that stuff all the tutors, scholars and theorem people do to make their points, in the casino you DO NOT!) So, what you are doing is, you are accepting what you believe to be the truth and you convince yourself the best chance is following such and such.  However, the reality turns out to be the casino shoe presentments will be different and you cannot transpose what you learned or believe in, to the bac table at the casino. The fastest race car driver will not always win.  The best field goal kicker can not prevail doing the same thing in every game.  The best extreme mountain climber cannot apply the same protocols to every mountain he climbs.  Bac is no different, yet the scholars, the theorem experts and the computer wizards stick to their guns and put so much hogwash out there, they dilute what it really takes to realize what the bac shoe can really present and how to be on the right side of it.

Let's look at that, for just one paragraph here.  You have a certain amount of money to risk losing in order to win some.  Period.  So you have a very short period of time in order to accomplish that during each session.  No matter how much that figure is, it is limited.  The casino does not.  The casino has massive amounts of capital in chips and the cash within the premises by state law, ready to pay every chip displayed on the floor.  FYI, every chip on every table no matter if open or closed, the casino has the green cash within their vaults or the chips would not be on the tables.  So, you cannot out play them by repeated buy ins with additional money, thinking you will turn things around in your favor and turn their lights out.  As well, stamina, energy, focus, motivation, vision, and everything else along those lines are also working against you.  The casino rotates its dealers every 20 mins or so, not just to avoid collusion with players, but also for exactly the same reasons I just mentioned.  Sitting in either one or two spots for a period of several hours is hard both physically and mentality in so many ways, especially with the focusing and thought process.  Then when things go bad for a player, he believes taking a break is great, but his mind is convinced he will miss that section of presentments yet to come with his winning hands, etc.  That starts a mean cycle and a cycle that is not very good for the player, great for the casino though.

Then we have the fact what we have discussed in detail so many times.  A negative game with a negative expectation.  IMO and my proven experience, if you have the proper risk capital and mind-frame along with a governed buy in that is a partial amount of your bank roll, coupled with the knowledge and the experience to manage your winnings into numerous chances that benefit yourself rather than the casino, then you have a chance to play numerous sessions and win money. 

But, IMO you have to master a way to hold wins, perform positive progressions and parlays, yet be able to risk without emotion or distress while walking away losing your buy in which has to be a partial amount of your bank roll, without it effecting you to the point that you regret it and dwell upon the loss.

The myths and the fallacies that exist on the internet regarding baccarat as well as casino gambling are astronomical!  People become delusion to their own thoughts.  They provide themselves no advantage to make themselves a sequence of wagering selections which they really believe they have.  They actually afford themselves no advantage and they limit their options by doing just that.  That is the sad part, all that learning and researching only convinced themselves of numerous ways to beat the casino, when none actually exist.  Especially in mathematical and statistical adherence.  Period.

At this point so many will still believe and attempt to count the cards, keep track of the banker, the player, ties and other events the shoe produces.  Simply, if it worked like that, the casino would not offer cards, pens and the newer electronic scoreboards.  It does not, at least for the extreme upper 90% of the time you are there, if you employ it as a protocol for wagering or not wagering.  Will there be sections where the equaling out, or certain events happen because there was a deficiency of them prior to that?  Sure.  However, just as important and what becomes devastating, are the times and the sections that those very things were supposed to, or yet believed would come out and did not.  And, that my friend will happen a greater amount of times in the casino's favor, rather than the players advantage.  That is the reason why and the only reason why the casino provides you the equipment and the permission to track, score, calculate and take notes all you desire at the baccarat table.

So what is one to do?  You have to develop a unique boldness or an advantage in select wagering when the presentments of the shoe offer the chance to win hands that will allow yourself to outweigh your losses in the attempt to win money.  There is really a chance for the player, once you figure that out and forget about the wager for such and such, because so and so just happened, or did not happen, type of play.

No matter what creative or Holy Grail angle you think you found, you will not bring it to the baccarat table and repeatedly beat the casino at the game. No matter how perfect your counting is, no matter how perfect your data modeling and tracking methods become, no matter how perfect you can sense something, etc.  If you continue to wager on any one or several types of wagers because of your expectation, that the presentment will match any type of theorem or system schedule, you are dead wrong and will be on a continuous basis.  Simply because the numbers of possible outcomes have too many possibilities for anything stable or predictable to happen on a consistent basis, whether that is in one shoe or multiple shoes of baccarat.  That is, if you continue playing past your first time anyway.

You don't have to change yourself.  Or stop believing, or stop gambling, or stop questioning or stop applying yourself.  The whole trick to what will help you, is being totally conscious and putting yourself into a neutral state of playing, a natural state of focus, vision and mind frame.  Not even in the belief that a certain Bet Selection process will prevail over another.

It is about progressions, parlays and accumulating that amount each time or during a cumulative amount of times, that outweighs the variance, the house edge, your own default rate, etc., that you engage yourself in.  You have to figure out how each $100 you play with, will allow you to win after you lose a certain amount.  And IMO, experience and everything else combined, I found a certain way to be able to win at baccarat.  And that is to realize time, money, emotional, psychological and frame of mind all combined will determine how your decision making process allows you to accumulate and allocated your wins and how you manage the losses that will happen.  Those that think and believe everything I just mentioned does not apply to them, are just wasting their time being here anyway.

Quote from: alrelax on June 24, 2019, 12:04:52 AM
June 22nd shoe.

Remember, I have wrote many time, F-7 in the first 10 hands, this one came on hand 9. Or, second most is hand 16 to 23.

Back to the Players Side.  This section of Players came hand 22 through hand 46.  17 Players to 4 Bankers.  Here is the first half:

[attachimg=1]

Here, like I said, last night 2 out of the 3 boards we played.  2 of the F7s were respectfully, hands 18 and 20.  You have to identify what  presentments and sections do and produce so you can capitalize on them.

Last night 9-21-19:

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

Revisit this with my comments.  From B&M casinos, not from on-line which I do believe there are huge differences in the shoe presentments.  Anyway:

Quote from: AsymBacGuy on June 20, 2019, 11:18:51 PM
It was just a kind of joke, we know mathematicians can't beat the game and neither players using an empirical approach. Probably the answer is in the middle.

I won't give specific answers to my questions as nobody is interested on numbers. Just personal comments.

Question #1: it's very very rare to get three consecutive shoes without at least one natural 8/9 showing, especially if 8s and 9s are quite live in the actual portion of the deck. Since such side bet is payed 50:1 we have plenty of room to set up a progressive profitable betting.   (For example in three shoes last night 9/21/19 at a B&M Casino, one complete shoe, one half of a shoe and the third one about 3/4 of the shoe.  Asym, is exactly correct.  One shoe had 3 natural 8/9s presented.  One shoe had 2 and in a very short section of presented hands and the other none.  With the amount of hands as I mentioned.)  (I would say to wait for a bit for the 50:1 and if not appearing by hand 30-40 it is a pretty good side bet, IMO.)

#2: when we are on Banker showing 4 and the third card is a 9, of course we are in a very good shape unless player's initial cards shows zero. A missed bonus as the probability player has zero is 1:3.77 (5 is ignored as it forms a tie hand).
An excellent wasted probability that we won't find around the corner. If we were on Player we have no reasons to jump. (I would have to add 4 and 5 as well to that statement)

#3: the average number of player's 3+ streaks is, imo, one of the best tool to take advantage from. Remember that sh.it or fantastic situations tend to come out in clusters. (In lots of ways yes, but as an average, not as a definitive trigger)

#4: oh well, everybody reading my pages should teach me about this. Say we'll get at least 3 asym hands per shoe and it's very very unlikely to get more than 14. Do not fall in the trap to bet banker when the asym force went away. (I would say, if an average had to be named, IMO, 5-7 good ones)

#5: when 7s are particularly live at a EZ baccarat table, the best move is to bet player and the F-7 bet. You don't want to pay the banker's vig when a symmetrical hand is more likely to show up and to get a F-7 with live 7s, banker must get zero as initial point that is a non advantaged asym situation. (In a way, however, it appears to me a greater amount of F-7s are won with 3s, 4s and 6s rather than with 7s.  But i do not have worldwide stats on that and I do not believe no one would posses those stats.  Too many variables.  It does not only take an abundance of 7s in that case, it also takes an abundance of 10s as well as any otehr combination of 2 cards equaling 10 or zero for the third card of 7 to make it a F7 win) 

#6: Mathematically is relatively low but any Player standing point is favorite to win itlr. And do not forget the clustering effect: Glen wrote an interesting thread about this. (I forget which one I wrote, but Player seems to win more with standing on 6 than 7s.  Of course, if I could or would know the player would have a 7, I would wager on it every single time, just does not work out that way.)

#7: player gets a 42.07% probability to win just about 8.4% of the total hands dealt. Not that easy to get consecutive dog situations like that.

#8: it's quite easy to lose (or win depending on which side we were betting) even 12 or more hands in a row in such B favorite situation. Sometimes it seems that P helping 3s are concentrated on the possible player's third card. Again a kind of clustering effect.
Notice that when the P third card is a 3 only a B 5 or B 6 point are standing (asym situations).   

#9: it's a pretty good spot to bet P side and getting a 7 as we'll lose immediately just 19% of the situations (B naturals). Moreover Banker must stand on its 6s when facing a P standing; actually it should draw to get a better probability not to lose (a sort of mistake made by bac inventors, probably set up in order to limit the B advantage). In the remaining possibilities Banker can beat us only catching two cards out of all 13 probabilities. (Do not think about the only two cards to lose scenario.  Think about how many darn times you can only lose or tie by drawing one or two cards and that scenario happens, you draw the only one card to lose and everything else would have won or tied.  It happens and happens often.)  (in fact similar, last night out of 3 shoes, the amount of P or B hands reduced to zero or only one point, the other side (almost all of them where every one was betting) wither tied with a zero zero point value or lost by drawing a 10 or another card to reduce to one zero when the other side remain with a one point total.  Example: Player side had 10 and an Ace and Bankers side had 2 tens or face cards.  Players pull a third card of 10/0 value and Bankers pulls the same.  Players side no one is on wins 1 over 0.  Or Players side has a 4 total with first 2 cards and Bankers side has a 6 total and Players side pulls a 7 and Bankers side pulls a 4.)

#10: the probability to get a natural on either side is 34.2%, yet per every shoe dealt card distribution issues tend to deny a perfect balancement of such occurences.
A careful assessment of the consecutiveness of naturals falling on one side or the other one may help to spot the actual "card distribution" advantaged side. Especially when cards are not properly shuffled (that is almost always). (Seems that way at times, but that is one of the things/scenarios a player must be conscious of just as much and stay of conscious of that because it could not pan out or might very well continue with stronger and stronger occurrences rather than balancing out)

It would be a honor for me to work with you Lungyeh as well as with many other members here.


as.

Quote from: AsymBacGuy on September 20, 2019, 08:52:40 PM

I know at least a dozen of players making a living at this game and the common trait is they make very few bets. Some of them know a 0.1% of what me and you know about the game, yet they are long term winners. (Anything is possible, simpler is easier.  However, as you and most other know, I have written extensively about the casinos, the psych, the downfalls, the players mind frames and control, etc., etc.  Lots of things come into play and yet, very few of us realize what actually influence us in making decisions at the table.  One of the easiest and most successful betting selections in Bac is 3 and out.  Waiting for that 3rd repeat B or P and wagering for the cut.  If a person has a decent bank roll, he can snatch up so many 3 or even 4 and outs, than probably anything else, IMO at the Bac table.  But of course the person must be prepared to do a negative Marty for one or two or three or four additional bets.  Coming up across a 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 or 11 repeating B or P streak is usually not the case in every shoe.  Agreed?  However it does happen and if a person proceeds to do a negative Marty against same, it is easily a wipe out and hard and long to make up the loss.  Each of us play different and each of us have different experiences and thoughts on the game.)

Mathematically this move is sound. Since the game remains EV-, the probability to be ahead of something will be higher when betting very few hands, say that the best move is to wager everything only one time. (Yes fewer is better for the base win and a win of chips for a person to feel good about and play off of, but all that depends once again, on frame of mind, control, expectations and overall psych of the player.  Again, so much comes into play and contributes to the persons thought process, not just the bet selection.  We are all or at least most of us, influenced by numerous things at the table.  Easy to talk about here, harder at the table to apply it all and walk with small or initial winnings.)

If in this precise instant every bac player in the world will wager Banker, casinos will lose money as B>P even though Banker is payed less than 1:1. ( What do you mean paid less?  Are you referring to 5% commission?  If you are, not very hard to find an EZ Bac, or other commission free game any longer in most all casinos in the USA.  Some do not have that but across the street or down the street does.)

After this hypothetical hand, casinos will win money no matter what. (Depends on how long and how intense and what the persons goals are in playing.  The player (if this is what you are referring to) that plays relentlessly for the pot of gold each and every time, will lose far greater than what he will win if he plays long hours, every day, day in and day out, IMO.  There might be a very trivial few that can survive long hours at a casino each and every day, and win or at least break even on a long tern and a consistent everyday basis.  Again, IMO.)

Obviously if casinos will lose money, players will get something of it. (Please see the attached link.  Of course some will come on here and other boards, coping and pasting detailed defenses to what I am about to post, but no one knows the financial position of the players.  Some might have lost far greater than those wins and yet others, might be ahead of the game.  It depends on a persons wagering amounts and time played in comparison to your wins and losses.  Unfortunately for most all players, I DID NOT SAY ALL, I said most all, will wager larger and harder once they begin to lose a session and that is their downfall.  As well, the have almost zero management skills as to current and instant win money they happened to capitalize on).

LINK>>>    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-28/wynn-resorts-macau-casino-books-staggering-black-swan-gambling-loss

And altogether obvious is the fact that the more we stay and play the better we are liked by casinos. (Yes, and that is the huge suck in and hold for most players, especially their first several years of playing.)

Ask the casinos if they would like to fade ten $20.000 wagers made on ten different occasions or if they'd like more ten $20k hands made on the same session. (It does not matter to the casino.  They account for it by the table min.  Most places, I SAID MOST, so people do not challenge, the average table min for a $20k wager is going to be $300 to $500.  Some casino properties might be different, but the average goes, $25/$50 to $5,000, $100 to $10k, $200 to $15k, $300/$500 to $20k/$25k off the street no front money table limits.  There are some properties that might vary, but that is the average). 


Mathematically it doesn't change their expectation. In practical terms this simple different approach means a lot.

as.

First Shoe up to where we stopped:

[attachimg=1]

Second shoe up to where we stopped:


[attachimg=2]

Third shoe up to where we stopped:

[attachimg=3]

And here is how we played them and sectioned them as the hands progressed.  Once again.  Sectioning is not a pre-thought and pre-scheduled procedure, you do it as the hands are presented and section off the events to eliminate the strong from the weak, seldom will the entire shoe (or at least the highest majority of time) stay the same.  Argue if you desire but it is true. 

I and those around me the majority of the time desire to play with the presentments rather than hoping for the cut on every hand wagered.  Do not misunderstand, if it is chopping or doubles, playing the opposite side is not a cut, it is playing with the shoe.  We win far greater amounts of wagers by following small sections and then waiting for the shoe to change and follow once again. 

[attachimg=4]

[attachimg=5]

[attachimg=6]

The ones that were silenced were the ones that were abusive, bringing issues that were not board related or infringing on O.P.'ers threads and causing drama.  They will blame it all on me, but they were the ones that desired control, content and rule of the board.  That behavior will seldom fly on any board, WoV, VMB, etc.  The four members I believe you are referring to are:  Mark/Gizmotron, Junket King-Lugi-Eaglelite, and the other 10 or so sock puppet and alias names, Xander, SoxFan and of course 21 Aces.  I do not believe there was anyone else. 

To the best of my knowledge they are all on another board that they control and say what they want including hatred posts to this board as well WoV, etc. So be it, it is a free world, this is a private business entity the same as a casino, you can be asked to leave and trespassed if the casino desires.  However, with that said, all anyone has to do to post and use this forum is follow the rules. 

And, I will publicly state.  Anyone is allowed back here and can post, as long as they follow the rules and do not cause drama, are respectful and do not bring other boards business here.  Like on GamblingForums where they devote threads to hatred, drama and chastising members of various other message boards.

But I will not have members that go on to threads of people posting with hatred, disrespect and literally and verbally driving the member into the wall with relentless and repetitive drive to grind the OP down because of conflicting beliefs, theories and experiences which is exactly what was happening on a daily basis with those 5 members I mentioned above.   

Thank you, Alrelax. 

Go ahead Mark, Go ahead Junkie, report Katt William to the Jews, to the FBI, to the ADL end of the Jews, to the KKK if they exist any longer to everyone.  He said kill, he said the N word, ROMAFL!  This dude tells it the way it is, absolutely brilliant, and he is an ebony masterpiece or a African American, whatever, but brilliant and truthful!

Right @ 0:39 to start, thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htrjz6cFz1c